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Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

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Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#31

Post by mjec »

cottsak wrote: post #22
mjec wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Electoral Commission has since refused to comply with the Senate order to release the source code: http://lee-rhiannon.greensmps.org.au/sites/default/files/ron...

@mjec, "I am advised that publication of the software could leave the voting system open to hacking or manipulation" Shouldn't this "advice" demand substantiation or evidence? Surely it's not enough for one to just get "advice" right? If so then any Joe could lie to this officer and they could write the same thing. Also, what does that bit about "commercial-in-confidence" mean?

> Shouldn't this "advice" demand substantiation or evidence?

I think so, and evidently so do others. Already a gentleman by the name of Brendan Molloy has put in an FOI request for the documents on which this advice was based: https://www.righttoknow.org.au/request/documents_informing_t...

> Also, what does that bit about "commercial-in-confidence" mean?

The AEC does conduct some elections on a fee-for-service basis - things like union elections. They use a version of the same system to tally votes in those elections too. They say that the two systems are totally inseparable, to the point where you can't just cut out the code used in industrial elections. They also say revealing the code (though keep in mind it would still be copyrighted, so couldn't be used by any other organisation) would cause them significant commercial disadvantage. Because they have particular efficiency in the way their software operates which causes them to be more competitive.

As you might suspect, I disagree with pretty much every part of what they claim there.

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#32

Post by jfoster »

colmmacc wrote: post #29
zmmmmm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a side show at all, it's the most important thing. By showing us the code the AEC is making the implicit commitment that this is the code running on their systems. Until they show us some code they are not even making that commitment at all - they could be running anything, they could change it every day to match their whims. My own suspicion is that they DO know of numerous problems either current or past a…

I don't mean any offense - but your position is not self-consistent. "Showing us the code" does not invalidate "could change it every day to match their whims". For example the entire source code to Linux is public, but looking from the outside, you as an observer have no way to know that a particular copy of the Linux code is what is running on my laptop. Which is why I say it's a side-show. If the source code is sh…

If they could be legally compelled to release it once, perhaps there is some way of legally compelling them to always have the most recent version published.

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#33

Post by retroencabulato »

zmmmmm wrote: post #25
colmmacc wrote: post #8

Visibility of the source code is a side-show in electronic voting systems. Even if the source code is published, there is no way to be sure that that is the code that is running on the hardware, or to be certain that the hardware itself has not been tampered with. Votes need to be printed out on paper, verified by the voter, and counted by hand. Still, when we had the source code for the Irish system (now abandoned d…

It's not a side show at all, it's the most important thing. By showing us the code the AEC is making the implicit commitment that this is the code running on their systems. Until they show us some code they are not even making that commitment at all - they could be running anything, they could change it every day to match their whims. My own suspicion is that they DO know of numerous problems either current or past a…

Or, as they said, the software has commercial value:

http://www.aec.gov.au/about_aec/AEC_Services/Fee_for_service...

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#34

Post by Maxious »

colmmacc wrote: post #8

Visibility of the source code is a side-show in electronic voting systems. Even if the source code is published, there is no way to be sure that that is the code that is running on the hardware, or to be certain that the hardware itself has not been tampered with. Votes need to be printed out on paper, verified by the voter, and counted by hand. Still, when we had the source code for the Irish system (now abandoned d…

The Australian counting system is VB6 on embedded MSSQL upgraded from a COBOL implementation.

"Two AEC data entry operators enter the same ballot data into the system separately, so their counts can be compared to verify that data entry discrepancies are not allowed to influence the final outcome." http://www.itnews.com.au/News/360504,the-tech-behind-was-sen...

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#35

Post by thrush »

Professor Alex Halderman from Michigan has performed a few studies on Electronic Voting and Electronic Voting Machines, and essentially has proven that it is insecure. At one point, he hacked an American EVM to play the Michigan Fight song on every submission. You can read a few of his papers here: [1][2]

The challenge of creating anonymous and secure voting systems is still an area of constant research, and I do not believe that the Australian gov't has solved these problems yet.

Should we view the source? If we know it's insecure because it's basically unbelievable to think that otherwise, what good will seeing the code do? The fact that it is not being shown basically confirms the insecurity (if it was truly secure, we'd be able to see it without having a negative effect on the system). It seems the right thing to do is to fight this method of voting until EVMs are more secure, but maybe we should hedge our bets. Maybe we're going to be stuck with these EVMs in the interim, and we should avoid leaking the source to prevent people who have difficulty viewing the source.

[1] https://jhalderm.com/pub/papers/evm-ccs10.pdf [2] https://jhalderm.com/pub/papers/voting-wecsr11.pdf

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#36

Post by colmmacc »

thrush wrote: post #35

Professor Alex Halderman from Michigan has performed a few studies on Electronic Voting and Electronic Voting Machines, and essentially has proven that it is insecure. At one point, he hacked an American EVM to play the Michigan Fight song on every submission. You can read a few of his papers here: [1][2] The challenge of creating anonymous and secure voting systems is still an area of constant research, and I do not…

The Dutch group "We don't trust voting computers" [1] hacked up a machine to play chess [2]. It could easily beat a novice.

[1] http://wijvertrouwenstemcomputersniet.nl/English [2] https://www.flickr.com/photos/colmmacc/sets/7215759431270116...

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#37

Post by jcrawfordor »

Tloewald wrote: post #26

I've always though the Hare Clark system is intrinsically I democratic (even though it produces reasonable results) because no one seems to understand it (certainly the people who claim to can't explain it). It's also non deterministic -- the outcome can change hassle on the order in which votes are counted (although the impact will be very small in all probability)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote#Counti...

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#38

Post by gipp »

colmmacc wrote: post #29
zmmmmm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a side show at all, it's the most important thing. By showing us the code the AEC is making the implicit commitment that this is the code running on their systems. Until they show us some code they are not even making that commitment at all - they could be running anything, they could change it every day to match their whims. My own suspicion is that they DO know of numerous problems either current or past a…

I don't mean any offense - but your position is not self-consistent. "Showing us the code" does not invalidate "could change it every day to match their whims". For example the entire source code to Linux is public, but looking from the outside, you as an observer have no way to know that a particular copy of the Linux code is what is running on my laptop. Which is why I say it's a side-show. If the source code is sh…

The point, though, is that releasing the source code under the pretense that it is the running code can create a legal obligation that what's released is what's run. No, it doesn't prevent them from running something else, but it at least creates the possibility of audits and consequences if they do so.

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#39

Post by dwd »

josephg wrote: post #4

Thats appalling. As an Australian citizen, who should I call about this to voice my objection?

Try your local member. My local electorate is Fairfax so a bit of a no brainer.

Edit: Before anyone points out Clive's not in the Senate, he does have a very vocal, ongoing feud against the AEC and the budget for the AEC would most likely originate in the lower house.

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#40

Post by Unit327 »

thrush wrote: post #35

Professor Alex Halderman from Michigan has performed a few studies on Electronic Voting and Electronic Voting Machines, and essentially has proven that it is insecure. At one point, he hacked an American EVM to play the Michigan Fight song on every submission. You can read a few of his papers here: [1][2] The challenge of creating anonymous and secure voting systems is still an area of constant research, and I do not…

Australia doesn't use EVMs, all voting is done on pen and paper and counted manually. This is just the software used to input those results, tally them, do preference flows, and declare the outcome.
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