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This maze looks familiar

krazydad.com

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Re: This maze looks familiar

#81

Post by chrisbennet »

mordocai wrote: post #60
chrisbennet wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not "theft" because that word is pejorative and another word should be used? Is it because it isn't taking something without permission? Is it because intellectual property isn't property in some sense? Is it because the original isn't really "owned"? Is it be because the owner still has the original? Given similar reasoning, "identify theft" isn't really theft. After all, if someone "stole" my identity I'd sti…

Playing devil's advocate: If someone "steals" your identity, it isn't really theft sure. Really, you both have a pointer to that identity. The problem, which makes it a good idea for it to be illegal, is that you both have a pointer to the EXACT SAME identity. Thus, any destructive(or benevolent) changes they make affect your identity as well. Contrast this with most forms of "copyright theft", where the original own…

However, "copyright theft" does have an effect on the value of the original.

Suppose you write a book report for school and another student copies yours and passes their copy in first. You still have your original but it is significantly devalued. Passing it in may actually have negative value as you maybe accused of cheating.

It may not be theft but I think it hard to argue that it is not taking something of value without permission.

Re: This maze looks familiar

#82

Post by krazydad »

chton wrote: post #64
krazydad wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Highly unlikely. The grid design contains about 900 edges which can be set or clear. Their maze differs by 7 edges. Here's a statistics problem for you: What is the likelihood of generating a random 900 bit binary number that differs from another random 900 bit binary number by only 7 bits? Then there is the choice of grid design (identical), entry and exit holes (identical).

That's not a valid comparison for generated mazes, is it? Unless the algorithm was really just choosing randomly, some edges are far more likely to occur than others.

You are indeed correct. Nonetheless, the choice of the exact same fibonacci tile grid, exit, entry holes, and about 98% of the interior walls being identical...

Re: This maze looks familiar

#83

Post by tfinniga »

chton wrote: post #63
tfinniga wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With maze generation, you need some way of deciding which subset of the possible walls you're going to keep. Usually you rely on some random or pseudorandom numbers to feed into the algorithm or use internally. Having the maze verts in the same positions is possible and not too unlikely. Having the same walls is astronomically unlikely. Even if you had exactly the same algorithm (possible, but unlikely) and the imple…

Thanks for the explanation. what would the impact be if they had a different seed, would the maze be really drastically different? Or could it look more like the 2 mazes in the original post, with only a few walls different and mostly identical?

It depends on the pseudorandom number generator that you're using, but you'd be hard pressed to find a standard library prng where similar seeds produced similar random numbers. That would be pretty bad design.

For example, here is some code I wrote to test my own prng:

srand(1000000); for( int i = 0; i printf("====\n");

srand(1000001); for( int i = 0; i And here is the result:

21585 18586 29373 4301 3304 21158 23657 21142 2144 26110 ==== 21589 29335 14469 28364 13618 25085 26770 18215 18656 19962

As you can see, they diverge really quickly.

Re: This maze looks familiar

#84

Post by Nursie »

jordigh wrote: post #79
Nursie wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it not be? If I write a website and put thousands of mazes up, what difference does it make if I created them with a tool I wrote? Does the number of mazes created make a difference? Why? I can copyright a computer program that is the binary output of a compiler...

> Does the number of mazes created make a difference? Why? I understand that in some jurisdictions reproducing a small portion of a larger work, then it may constitute fair use. Bullet point 3: The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html Of course, this is but one bullet point out of four, and the law is fuzzy, as it should b…

Hadn't thought of that angle. You're right, there may be something in that (though I imagine you could argue each maze is a 'work')

I was more coming from the idea that just because there are lots of them generated surely doesn't mean they fall outsidd the law.

Re: This maze looks familiar

#86

Post by lifeisstillgood »

cloverich wrote: post #34

I see literally thousands of mazes generated on the site, and (unless I"m mistaken) they are all simply generated output from a computer program. Its cool, but is it even possible to copyright something like this?

It's where IP is a proxy for rewarding the original creator for the effort gone to. Clearly Kraft's designer just found the first maze that was circular-ish that came up in Google images and plonked it down and moved onto the next rush job.

Kraft clearly nicked it, or where careless as to wither it was copyrighted, but we have now wondered into output of program territory instead of the much clearer area of did kraft just grab the first thing that they could find?

You won't succeed in suing them - so this is probably the best option he has.

Re: This maze looks familiar

#87

Post by metacorrector »

dllthomas wrote: post #80
cloverich wrote: post #34

I see literally thousands of mazes generated on the site, and (unless I"m mistaken) they are all simply generated output from a computer program. Its cool, but is it even possible to copyright something like this?

Given that he wrote the program, exercising creativity there, and (I presume) exercised additional creative activity manually selecting which outputs to post from the space of generated mazes, it seems likely that it's possible to copyright something like this. IANAL, though.

There was a project in the early days of the internet boom, a website was put up (in australia IIRC) with every possible melody combination (using discrete scales) along with a copyright notice for each one, so nobody would be able to write a song in the future without infringing.

even if there was no creativity involved and thus the copyright would fail, it seems (IANAL) that it might put the melodies into the public domain, since how could somebody claim you had no right to use a melody that you had already published?

Re: This maze looks familiar

#88

Post by dragonwriter »

metacorrector wrote: post #87
dllthomas wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that he wrote the program, exercising creativity there, and (I presume) exercised additional creative activity manually selecting which outputs to post from the space of generated mazes, it seems likely that it's possible to copyright something like this. IANAL, though.

There was a project in the early days of the internet boom, a website was put up (in australia IIRC) with every possible melody combination (using discrete scales) along with a copyright notice for each one, so nobody would be able to write a song in the future without infringing. even if there was no creativity involved and thus the copyright would fail, it seems (IANAL) that it might put the melodies into the publi…

Copyright is not ownership of a particular composition, its ownership of the right to copy a particular work. While similar composition often is relevant evidence in a copyright case, the actual critical fact is, for ownership, the act of creation, and for infringement, whether the creation was copied/derived from a particular other work in which copyright ownership existed due to the act of creation.

The project you describe seems to be based on a patent-like idea of copyright, where infringement is independent of whether or not the work is an actual derivative of the protected work.

Re: This maze looks familiar

#89

Post by PaulAJ »

rrss1122 wrote: post #76

I tried looking on the linked mazes page for a license, the closest thing (in my opinon) was a statement to feel free to reproduce for personal, school, and church use. I figure if I couldn't find the copyright notice, it's probably hard for someone at Kraft to find it too (unless that statement IS the copyright notice). Does this necessarily exclude a for-profit use, or does that have to be explicitly declared? IANA…

The maze becomes copyright once it is fixed in tangible form. The license does not include commercial use (which this clearly is), so it is unlicensed.

Re: This maze looks familiar

#90

Post by dllthomas »

dragonwriter wrote: post #88
metacorrector wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a project in the early days of the internet boom, a website was put up (in australia IIRC) with every possible melody combination (using discrete scales) along with a copyright notice for each one, so nobody would be able to write a song in the future without infringing. even if there was no creativity involved and thus the copyright would fail, it seems (IANAL) that it might put the melodies into the publi…

Copyright is not ownership of a particular composition, its ownership of the right to copy a particular work. While similar composition often is relevant evidence in a copyright case, the actual critical fact is, for ownership, the act of creation, and for infringement, whether the creation was copied/derived from a particular other work in which copyright ownership existed due to the act of creation. The project you…

Moreover, it ignores that the creative act, when you are viewing things from a perspective of "there is a space of every possible ...", is locating interesting locations within that space, which an enumeration is not doing.
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