Live data from Hacker News

William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

theguardian.com

121–130 of 135 posts

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#121
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that use to be true, it isn't anymore. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_summary_of_the_Patriot_... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130917/13395324556/court... https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/government-confi...

Read your links, but found nothing contradictory with what I said... and I certainly found nothing to substantiate the claims of the post I replied to. What exactly used to be true that is no longer true?

"They are not allowed to spy on US persons without a warrant. Full stop."

That's what you said that is no longer true.

"The FISA Court (FISC) today released a heavily redacted version of its July ruling approving the renewal of the bulk metadata collection on all phone calls from US phone providers under Section 215 of the Patriot Act. "

Then there is the "3 hops" rule that allows full spying of individuals if you are "3 hops" from a suspected terrorist, which is most people alive.

I'm not saying whether or not I support any of this, but I do acknowledge that the NSA was not allowed to spy on US citizens before the patriot act and everything we know indicates that they strictly followed this rule, but things have changed.

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because such leaks will be used selectively, against anyone the data collecting agencies see as a worthwhile target. So because they don't remove all corrupt officials, just some, its a bad thing. Okay. I guess I don't really see that as any different as now and is completely unrelated to the quantity of recordings. > And no, blanket recording of all phone calls is not the "valid and good purpose" of the security a…

>So because they don't remove all corrupt officials, just some, its a bad thing. Yes! Absolutely! That's the worst-case. It means that the likes of Keith Alexander and James Clapper (and others who they may be in cooperation with) get to choose the government (to a degree sufficient to suit their needs).

Which, oddly enough, is what we have now.

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#123
post #4

“The ultimate goal of the NSA is total population control” Scary shit...

So that they can do what, exactly? Once they get total population control what kind of stuff will they be able to do that they couldn't do before?

Is that a serious question, or are you offering up a snarky "yeah, and so what if they did, who cares" style argument?

The answer is: a lot

But really you need to possess the capacity to conceive of at least one example of some selfish desirable evil, before you can grasp the vast potential this potent advantage of pervasive eavesdropping offers.

The elementary starting point in all these eavesdropping shenanigans is to imagine someone cheating at a simple card game. If you're the dealer, and your opponent is betting real money on the outcome of the game, would it be fair for you to look at his hand, or worse, stack the deck in you favor before the game even starts?

But population control goes way beyond the elementary sneaking of e-mails and phone calls. Total population control would carry profound and harsh realities with it, like eugenics, human experimentation, blood sports and human spectacle, secret prisons, human trafficking, sex slaves, disappearances. Trivial things like stock market manipulation become absurd, meaningless anachronisms, as corruption is endemic to the scenario. Extrajudicial killings, summary executions, sovereign leaders can wave their fingers and have people put to death.

What's it like to be a slave? That's what the ass end of total poulation control looks like. It's like being an olympic athlete for Iraq, and then coming home to be tortured by Saddam junior when you lose.

For those that benefit from total population control, every decadence awaits.

But, perhaps your rhetorical question is something along the lines of the "human rights are inalienable, and it would be impossible for them to do special terrible things, beyond the terrible things we normally fear like chemical warfare and nuclear annihilation"

Actually, no. Under a regime of technologically enabled total population control, there would emerge a class structure so rigid and inescapable that essentially a very small number of people would be born into a lavish, but paranoid existence, and the rest of the world would suffer a permanent crushing misery, that starts with ordinary poverty and gets worse. All of it enforced by geosynchronous satellites and atomic clocks with nearly the precision of spinning neutron stars.

Keep in mind that this would be a new age of technologically enforced, drone enabled population control. A North Korean gulag is bad, and it probably doesn't get much worse than being an elderly uncle to the dear leader, and still meeting an end by kangaroo court trial and an execution where your ripped apart by dogs.

Unless of course, the dogs are robot dogs manufactured by Boston Dynamics (oh, wait I mean Google). But maybe they're just drones armed with ever more accurate hellfire missiles. And that pretty much sums up the blue sky possibilities, if we fail to preserve the old-world checks and balances that are quickly disintegrating in the face of advances in modern technology. Completely obedient robotic systems enabling a truly air tight subjugation of humantity beneath an ever watchful panopticon. And wealth disparities that look like an abyssal cliff separating hollywood visions of the future from the stone age, and sociopaths enforcing the existence of the cliff perhaps for sheer amusement, narcissism, or whatever irrational human foible (bodily fluids, mandrake) worms it's way to the surface of the human factors that control these things that now influence our lives.

How many drones can be controlled from a single data center? How many drones would we need to enforce a permanent world-wide police state, and surveillance apparatus?

Technology is a force multiplier, and it permits fewer and fewer people to achieve a great deal, and possibly much more, far beyond what we've considered "super human" in the past. But worse yet, it can mutate innocuous well-meaning intentions in perverse ways. Thermonuclear bombs and missiles have kept a lid on serious global warfare for more than 50 years, but only by virtue of two psychotic power structures promising to vaporize each other at a twitch. Is that "good"?

But let's say the worst happens, and an evil megalomaniacal cabal implements a true robot armageddon. Wouldn't such a terrible sociopathic technocratic regime just cut to the chase, and kill off every last human being that dissents? Probably yes. But only if artificial intelligence proves to be a stalwart companion, otherwise much of the general population of humanity would be permitted to live, if for no other reason than fear of lonliness and inbreeding, but undoubtedly humanity would still be subjugated at the whim of the technocracy.

Anyway, to sum up, part of the story would be a short violent transistion phase, followed by a miserable but infinitely stable, robot-reinforced tyrrany. Like a marvel team-up of Kim Jong Il and son along with Saddam, Uday and Qusay all chanting "O'doyle rules!" while eating hot dogs and drinking Big Gulps and watching robots rape political disidents to death in a stadium filled with their genetically engineered clones and sex slaves.

Dare to dream.

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment is saying that those things wouldn't be created in the first place if the environment were already hostile to them. You can hide your present to some extent, but not erase the past.

Yes. I'm aware the parent comment wants to try to ignore reality and pretend you can nuke the publicly posted information on the internet in the event of a fascist government. That isn't how the internet or public communication works. The Nazis were able to identify the people they sent to concentration camps because of past associations, even once it became clear what they were doing because people don't live in a v…

I'm not sure what you are arguing. We can dislike the panopticon and the propaganda at the same time.

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an incredibly weak argument. First of all, whether they are shameless or not doesn't really matter. If sexually explicit pictures of a politician end up on the internet, his reputation takes damage. It's beyond his control. Plenty of politicians are willing to go to great lengths to avoid this. So what does it matter if he's shameless or not? Second of all, politicians and other powerful people might have som…

Nacchio was convicted of running a pump-and-dump insider trading scam that netted him ~$100MM at the expense of common public shareholders. If there's an award for "most obnoxious implication of NSA's wrongdoing", it should go to the attempted rehabilitation of people like Nacchio. Here's the indictment. It's quite straightforward. http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2007/0307... Here's the cliff notes…

Of course an indictment is going to make the indicted sound like scum. It's not exactly an unbiased document.

The pertinent questions in the Nacchio case are P(insider trading), P(getting caught), and P(getting caught | rejected NSA).

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#126
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested to hear from those who voted this comment down: Why? The parent's comment, even if disagreeable in some regards, is substantial and the discussion is better for it having been made.

It's naive to the point of absurdity. It's basically saying: The NSA/CIA/FBI/etc. couldn't even see Ukraine coming! They were on their coffee breaks, those silly spooks! They never get anything right do they? So don't worry about them collecting information on you! They couldn't even find Osama! Those slackers. Don't worry be happy!" The stupidest assumption one can make about a powerful organization is that it's inc…

Observing everyone isn't about targeting everyone, it's about targeting anyone. So even if they really did miss Ukraine, that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about them recording everything else.

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#127
post #11

We're staring at the gradual but deliberate end of privacy and its scary. The large majority of the world's population either doesn't know or care how significant or dangerous this trend is, and those few who do will find their way into surveillance databases because they act "suspiciously" by encrypting their communications and guarding their privacy. I don't see a powerful enough counterforce against this insidious…

More or less, yes. However, the danger is really only to people outside the safe herd majority who might draw the wrong sort of attention. So I don't see it being a huge danger. However, I don't think it'll ever devolve to the point where mass arrests or anything truly draconian takes place. There isn't any need in Democracy. You need to only control 51% of the engaged voters [e.g. the people who actually vote] and a…

> However, I don't think it'll ever devolve to the point where mass arrests or anything truly draconian takes place.

Sorry, what was that?

"Nearly half of black males and almost 40 percent of white males in the U.S. are arrested by age 23..." [1]

I do understand what you meant by "mass arrests", am I'm taking you out of context... but still I find the above statistics alarming.

1. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-01/uosc-sho01031...

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment is saying that those things wouldn't be created in the first place if the environment were already hostile to them. You can hide your present to some extent, but not erase the past.

Yes. I'm aware the parent comment wants to try to ignore reality and pretend you can nuke the publicly posted information on the internet in the event of a fascist government. That isn't how the internet or public communication works. The Nazis were able to identify the people they sent to concentration camps because of past associations, even once it became clear what they were doing because people don't live in a v…

You have totally misunderstood what the parent comment was saying.

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nacchio was convicted of running a pump-and-dump insider trading scam that netted him ~$100MM at the expense of common public shareholders. If there's an award for "most obnoxious implication of NSA's wrongdoing", it should go to the attempted rehabilitation of people like Nacchio. Here's the indictment. It's quite straightforward. http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2007/0307... Here's the cliff notes…

Of course an indictment is going to make the indicted sound like scum. It's not exactly an unbiased document. The pertinent questions in the Nacchio case are P(insider trading), P(getting caught), and P(getting caught | rejected NSA).

I don't see any pertinent question other than P(insider trading), which sure looks a lot like '1'.

Re: William Binney: 80% of audio calls are recorded and stored in the US

#130

The story in the Guardian by Antony Loewenstein certainly reports that William Binney's personal opinion as a former employee of NSA is that NSA is gathering up and recording whatever it can and that NSA has a "totalitarian mentality." That is a very important issue, if true, but it is at least debatable that NSA is really that thorough in its actual practices and really that generally blatant in disregarding the civ…

>The story in the Guardian by Antony Loewenstein certainly reports that William Binney's personal opinion as a former employee of NSA is that NSA is gathering up and recording whatever it can and that NSA has a "totalitarian mentality." That is a very important issue, if true, but it is at least debatable that NSA is really that thorough in its actual practices and really that generally blatant in disregarding the civil rights of Americans or even of people in other countries.

As a European, with a much more turbulent and close-up sense of history (including actual dictatorships in our recent past, in several countries, or the "democratic" governments involved even in actual bomb attacks against their own citizens, usually with the support of the US too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio ), I'm always amused by this kind of non-cynical naivety.

I guess it's the same way a non-criminal black person in the US, given their historical experiences, comes to understand that "justice" largely caters to some privileges and biases, whereas some protected suburban white child might have a much more naive approach.

What I'm getting at is: when it comes to those kind of operations, always assume the worse. And the so called "abuses" are seldom done by some "bad apples", they are built into the system.

>The other reason I don't believe this HN hivemind theory of politics is that I by no means assume that everyone in politics lacks personal integrity.

Another case in point. My take is that tons of people "lack personal integrity", and a certain loss of it is a pre-requisite for a succesful career in politics.

But in an a higher level, it's also that whether people in politics have "personal integrity" or not is besides the point.

The system can operate without integrity, even if most of it's players have "personal integrity".

For one, personal integrity is totally compatible with doing bad -- it only requires that you believe that the "bad" has to be done for an ultimately good cause (e.g surveillance and safety).

Plus, ethical systems (that guide "integrity") have many levels, strict conformance to the law and professional ethics is just one of them. For example, a cop that plants evidence on some guy, perhaps does not do it because he "lacks personal integrity" (e.g to pad his arrest record), but because he really believes the guy is guilty and that it's his duty as a good guy to put him in prison. That the guy could be innocent, and what he's doing is morally wrong, doesn't cross his mind, because he is convinced.

Post reply on HN