Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

github.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 80 posts

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#51

Post by personjerry »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #29

In order to balance the game I am working on, I am planning to use a somewhat similar automated system (although its good to note, you can get a very interesting statistical analysis by ignoring the AI and just playing random cards/skills/whatever you are testing against each other). This of course works best if you are selecting two discrete subsets of one superset and playing with card variance (random decks, contr…

Interesting criticisms, but I'd have to argue against most of your points here.

- You're right: card games inherently involve luck. But games like Hearthstone and MTG let you control your deck so that less luck is involved. And I would argue Hearthstone actually has the better model -- there's no way to get screwed out of mana or flooded with mana like in MTG.

- Card starvation exists, but is typically a problem with deck construction or gameplay rather than the game itself. Two ways about the problem in deck construction: more card draw, and bigger cards. Playing is more complicated, but consider keeping your options open rather than playing things immediately, since you can gain card advantage if you can 2-for-1. Consider the HandLock deck in which a warlock draws a huge hand to abuse abilities involving hand size. Rarely will their games go past 30 cards, and yet their hand is filled with options all the time.

- You are right, each class has but one or two competitive deck styles and are predictable. But knowing the meta is part of any card game, and I think as Hearthstone grows this will be better. Coming from MTG I found classes brought quite a variety of play styles (at least 9!), if somewhat unbalanced and artificial.

- Again you are right. This issue arises as a necessary consequence of classes. Blizzard has actively done this for balance. Cards outside class decks need to be generic or else they would make some decks too powerful in combos. For example I might want more spell power cards for my Druid deck but that would make Mage control decks unbelievably strong.

- This is a subjective point and your view is valid. IMHO their quest system is a pretty versatile option of getting gold. If you want you can play 2 games a day and earn 40 gold, or you can play 10 and earn 100, depending on the quest.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#52

Post by _raoulcousins »

matchu wrote: post #44
dirtyaura wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me Hearthstone didn't feel grindy at all compared to almost any other top IAP game available in App Store. I think Hearthstone hit a pretty good balance for freemium IAP model, I never felt that I had to pay to be able to play, unlike in most of the other freemium IAP games. I agree that classing causes a bit too predicable deck strategies, MtG felt more balanced on this aspect. What Hearthstone got right was the…

I suspect that MtG's big advantage here is having a ton more cards. Hearthstone's meta is pretty straightforward because there are only a handful of cards to work with right now, but the upcoming Naxxramus mini-expansion should make things more interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing what'll happen when they finally produce a full expansion.

How do you define straightforward? Magic has a lot of cards, but formats restrict* the pool of cards that can be used, and within each format's legal cards, the majority of them are unplayable.

*(in the colloquial sense of the word restrict, except in vintage (and trivially in commander/EDH/Australian Highlander/Chromandercore), where cards are restricted in the magic sense of the words restrict)

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#53

Post by _raoulcousins »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #29

In order to balance the game I am working on, I am planning to use a somewhat similar automated system (although its good to note, you can get a very interesting statistical analysis by ignoring the AI and just playing random cards/skills/whatever you are testing against each other). This of course works best if you are selecting two discrete subsets of one superset and playing with card variance (random decks, contr…

Are you working on a CCG? I'd be interested in seeing how an automated system's results would compare to the MtG model of balancing, which sounds pretty intense.

From what I understand, design makes and tests sets at a flat power level, development adjusts the power level and creates more cards, and future future league plays the new cards for months/years and makes more adjustments to balance before the cards go to print.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#54

Post by slapresta »

_halgari wrote: post #12

I'm a bit against the code style: https://github.com/oyachai/HearthSim/blob/master/src/com/hea... So the card that does the damage has to do the removal check for the minions? Talk about duplication of code. Wouldn't something like this be better: engine.dealDamage(1).to(Category.EnemyMinions);

Most of the code is nearly unreadable.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#55

Post by jxf »

chacham15 wrote: post #46
gavanwoolery wrote: post #29

In order to balance the game I am working on, I am planning to use a somewhat similar automated system (although its good to note, you can get a very interesting statistical analysis by ignoring the AI and just playing random cards/skills/whatever you are testing against each other). This of course works best if you are selecting two discrete subsets of one superset and playing with card variance (random decks, contr…

The #1 reason I stopped playing the game is because I would do fairly well at the game, get matched with stronger opponents, and subsequently lose because I dont even have the full set of Mage cards while my opponent is pulling legendaries. That kind of a game just isnt fun for me and it happens over and over.

FWIW I ranked Legendary (in March 2014) without using any Legendary cards. It's definitely not required for success.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#57

Post by gavanwoolery »

personjerry wrote: post #51
gavanwoolery wrote: post #29

In order to balance the game I am working on, I am planning to use a somewhat similar automated system (although its good to note, you can get a very interesting statistical analysis by ignoring the AI and just playing random cards/skills/whatever you are testing against each other). This of course works best if you are selecting two discrete subsets of one superset and playing with card variance (random decks, contr…

Interesting criticisms, but I'd have to argue against most of your points here. - You're right: card games inherently involve luck. But games like Hearthstone and MTG let you control your deck so that less luck is involved. And I would argue Hearthstone actually has the better model -- there's no way to get screwed out of mana or flooded with mana like in MTG. - Card starvation exists, but is typically a problem with…

Good points :) The only thing I would make a note on is luck in card games: Some card games involve a lot more luck than others. One of my favorite iOS games, Orions, gives you a set of random cards (assuming you do a random match), and from there you play whatever cards you want (your full deck, basically, which is a random subset of about half the cards in the game). Of course, you have to build up enough mana to play a given card, and many increases by 1 each turn on its own. Its possible to be given a crappy deck, but even those matches you can play out more deterministically because you know what you've got to work with; also this is part of the fun - finding a creative path to victory with a deck that you are not used to (building decks can be fun in its own right, but I (personally) prefer being given a random set of cards - this makes each playthrough more unique and exciting).

In shorter words, there are a few types of luck you could work with: luck of the deck, luck of the draw, etc.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#59

Post by gavanwoolery »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #42
gavanwoolery wrote: post #29

In order to balance the game I am working on, I am planning to use a somewhat similar automated system (although its good to note, you can get a very interesting statistical analysis by ignoring the AI and just playing random cards/skills/whatever you are testing against each other). This of course works best if you are selecting two discrete subsets of one superset and playing with card variance (random decks, contr…

I agree with most of your comments, but I really think Heartstone is Free to Play done right (not to the extent of DOTA2 or Path of Exile, but almost). After more than a hundred of hours on it, to date I haven't spent a dime of real money (I'll happily buy the single player expansion, though). Just do daily quests in Ranking and spend the coins on Arena,which doesn’t depend at all on real money spent, and you'll get…

Yeah, I should note of all the F2P games, Hearthstone has done it the best for me. Its really a tiny nitpick for me, if anything.

Re: Show HN: HearthSim, an AI and game simulator for Hearthstone Heroes of Warcraft

#60

Post by oyachai »

paulgerhardt wrote: post #58

Can someone clarify if this is the same HearthStone AI/Machine Learning project being presented at DEF CON this year by Elie and Celine Bursztein[1]? [1] https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-22/dc-22-speakers.html#Bu...

I'm not affiliated with those guys, but the project definitely looks interesting!
Post reply on HN