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Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

eurekalert.org

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Re: Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

#281

Post by dragonwriter »

ameister14 wrote: post #277
Pxtl wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be taken as an argument that police intervention in schoolyard violence works. My point isn't that schools are more violent, but that we're correctly identifying that managing school violence is not part of the teacher role , and simply ignoring it as "boys will be boys" isn't good either.

It could, but the time period violent crime has been going down and the period that saw far more cops in schools don't completely overlap.

The "more cops deployed in schools" thing lagged the preference for police intervention and legal charges for school-site crimes that previously might have been handled informally (deploying cops to schools was a response to the fact that the cops were being called to schools more often.)

So if it was the change in disciplinary approach that drove the decrease in violent crime, its quite possible that effect would somewhat precede the increase in police deployments in schools.

Re: Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

#282

Post by dragonwriter »

byoung2 wrote: post #2

Nearly half of black males and almost 40 percent of white males in the U.S. are arrested by age 23, which can hurt their ability to find work, go to school and participate fully in their communities. An arrest by itself, without an accompanying conviction, cannot be used to deny employment. 1. http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/arrest_conviction.cfm#I

> An arrest by itself, without an accompanying conviction, cannot be used to deny employment.

Your own linked source does not say that -- it says that an exclusion based on an arrest record alone is not considered "job related and consistent with business necessity", and so will not be an adequate defense against a discrimination claim if disparate impact on a protected axis (e.g., race) is established. It does not, however, indicate that deny employment on that ground is per se prohibited.

Further, it does clearly state that the employer may use the fact of an arrest, even without conviction, as a trigger for exploration of the "conduct underlying the arrest", and may use that as a basis for denying employment or other adverse job actions even without an arrest -- providing, unhelpfully, nearly the most extreme possible example of an arrest without conviction as an illustration (an elementary school principal arrested but not convicted of sexually abusing minors where an internal investigation triggered by the arrest found some evidence supporting the accusations but still no conviction occurred), which certainly indicates why an arrest without a conviction may be sufficient to demonstrate that the decision is reasonably job related, but does little to illustrate where the boundary is.

Re: Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

#283

Post by dragonwriter »

Fezzik wrote: post #154
pertinhower wrote: post #19

I find this frankly implausible. What percentage of people you know have been arrested? I'm guessing very small (even assuming that many hide it and so you're knowledge is substantially skewed). So maybe that's because of your high/squeaky-clean socio-economic class? No: imagine yourself in any class you care to. Unless that class is much, much larger than your "real" class, then it would have to have an astronomical…

The study appears to be using "arrested" to mean "convicted of a crime for which the person could have been arrested (taken in to police custody)"? Example: I have never been arrested/taken in to police custody but, I was convicted of providing alcohol to minors at a college party and, had I not willingly taken the citation from the officer or, had I been belligerent and uncooperative, I could have been arrested. Tec…

> The study appears to be using "arrested" to mean "convicted of a crime for which the person could have been arrested (taken in to police custody)"?

No, it uses it to mean arrested.

> Example: I have never been arrested/taken in to police custody but, I was convicted of providing alcohol to minors at a college party and, had I not willingly taken the citation from the officer or, had I been belligerent and uncooperative, I could have been arrested.

Legally, a citation issued for a crime is a non-custodial arrest. [1]

> Technically, you could argue while the officer was issuing me the citation I was under some sort of arrest, but that does not comport with either the legal notion of being under arrest or what most people think of as being under arrest.

No, it comports quite exactly with the legal notion of arrest, which can either be non-custodial (the type you report having experienced) or custodial (the type which tends to involve handcuffs.) To the extent the Wikipedia article you cite is inconsistent with that (and you seem to have linked to an irrelevant section of the article, though I do so material earlier which, though it is inaccurate, supports your presentation), it is simply wrong.

[1] See, e.g., http://www.waprosecutors.org/manuals/search/May%202012%20%20.... @ p. 252: "A non-custodial arrest occurs where the defendant is issued a citation for a criminal offense at the scene of a stop."

Re: Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

#284

Post by schrodinger »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #239
tzs wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black males are disproportionately represented among those in poverty or with low income compared to white males. If the police completely ignored race, we would expect black males to be arrested at a higher rate than white males. The most troubling possibility that the black male vs white male rate suggests to me is that police might not be taking black victims as seriously as white victims. Blacks die by homicide a…

>I don't even have a guess as to why white females might be arrested at a higher rate than black females. Have you spent any time around white American females?

Please understand that this is a racist comment.

Re: Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

#285

Post by EdwardDiego »

I've little experience in apply statistical analysis to this data (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8018014, thank you to that user), so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but would it be possible to remove poverty as a confounding factor?

I am guessing, based largely on American television I've consumed growing up, that a higher proportion of black males grow up in poverty than white males?

Re: Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

#287

Post by tesq »

donatj wrote: post #179
comrade1 wrote: post #149

There are far too many laws in the u.s. and you can never know when you're breaking a law. And enforcement is often arbitrary and based on if the police want to harass/check you, or if they want to pile charges on top of another charge to get you to deal on a plea. Some countries view laws as a failure of society. You don't pass a law until your society has failed in that way, and instead you use social norms/control…

> enforcement is often arbitrary and based on if the police want to harass/check you This. Absolutely this. So many laws are only enforced if and when you've irritated a cop. There are so many laws in the US about so many stupid things that they can ALWAYS bust you for something if they want to. Always. There's probably a handful of things they could charge me with on my drive home.

It doesn't take much to irritate a cop. Sometimes, the sight of or bare minimum interaction with you is enough to trigger irritation in a cop for reasons. So many laws are enforced solely because a cop thinks you don't look the part and look suspicious for, erm, reasons.

Unfortunately, these reasons are pervasive throughout the justice system so make sure you don't irritate a cop or it could cost you money, time and freedom.

Re: Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

#288

Post by Kiro »

coldtea wrote: post #210
Pxtl wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I'm not sure that police involvement for this stuff is a bad thing. Schools are no longer equipped to handle violence between students, and it's questionable whether they ever were. They've lost many disciplinary tools they could use to deal with violent students, and even then it's hard to say that schools properly handled bullying or other student-on-student violence issues back in the "good old days". Br…

> Honestly, I'm not sure that police involvement for this stuff is a bad thing. Schools are no longer equipped to handle violence between students, and it's questionable whether they ever were. I don't know, they are perfecty fine to "handle violence between students" in Western Europe, and without metal detectors and police on site. Perhaps it's time for the society to recheck it's course, instead of throwing jail t…

I don't agree. School in Western Europe can be a horrifying experience where the only solution is that the person being beaten up transfers to another school. Nothing is done about the people beating.

Re: Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

#289

Post by kruczek »

Pxtl wrote: post #159
watwut wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that actual violence comitted by teens is going down.

That could be taken as an argument that police intervention in schoolyard violence works. My point isn't that schools are more violent, but that we're correctly identifying that managing school violence is not part of the teacher role , and simply ignoring it as "boys will be boys" isn't good either.

While violence may not be a part of the teacher role, education certainly is. And that sounds like the kind of social education that is an extension of what family should be providing. I'm wary of sending policemen to school, just the same as I'd be wary of sending policemen to families ("violence is not part of the parent role").

Re: Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23

#290

Post by nanidin »

mpyne wrote: post #254
watwut wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can really arrested you for drinking as a minor? In here a bar can get into trouble if they sell you a drink, but your only trouble are parents if they ever find out. And I remember that 18-19 years old Americans I knew indeed used to drink (and get wasted too).

As always in the U.S., it depends on the state and city where you live. But I'm pretty positive there are cities where it's actually illegal for a person to be drinking underage. Knowing some of our cities, mere possession of an open container by itself might be enough. However as you note, that hasn't really stopped teenage drinking...

It's worse than that - entire states have adopted the concept of a minor in possession by consumption - if a minor is behaving in a way that leads police to believe they are intoxicated, that is enough to charge them with being in possession of alcohol.
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