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Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

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Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#31

Post by contingencies »

AJ007 wrote: post #16
dynofuz wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or when aquifers run out of freshwater used to irrigate fields

It would be very interesting to see what the price of water would be if it was subject to a market. A tragedy of the commons which isn't immediately visible until gone. Paradoxically some cities in the future will be bone dry ( Las Vegas) which others will be under water (Miami.) Freshwater available in neither. Another good point is reduction or elimination of e coli & other pathogens caused by livestock runoff & wo…

workers shitting in the fields.

Outside of eating meat, B12 comes only from growing vegetables in proximity to mammal manure... it's not necessarily such a bad thing as you make out.

Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#32

Post by marssaxman »

big_youth wrote: post #11
kaonashi wrote: post #2

The LED grow lights seem to be a real game-changer; the most modest estimates put the power savings at ~%50 (over HPS).

I remember seeing bleeding edge cannabis growers experimenting with LED lights several years ago. Now most growers I know use use supplemental LED lights in their operation.

I built some of those early prototype lights. It was nothing remotely close to cost effective at the time, but I was doing a lot of work with LEDs and thought it would be interesting to see how the power consumption and heat management problems would improve using LEDs. It was enough to convince me that LED grow lights were absolutely the way of the future.

Now that cannabis growing is legal here in Washington, though, it will be interesting to see whether outdoor growing can compete. The advantage of being able to precisely control your plant's growth cycle is pretty significant even compared to getting your power for free from the sun.

Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#33

Post by idibidiart »

Retric wrote: post #30
idibidiart wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar is not free above sunk cost? We've ran a whole house in AZ exclusively on solar the last 7 years, with a ~$40K investment. Would this consume so much electricity that the initial cost will not be recouped before the solar system degrades beyond use? What's the math you're inferring from?

Solar is ~20% efficient LED's are less than ~40% efficient so you would need more land area for solar farms than you save by growing indoors. On top of that you need to pay for all your capital costs. There are other issues, but if this was close to cost effective you would be seeing this in Iceland which gets little sunlight in the winter and has cheap energy costs. Instead they use suplimental lighting inside green…

I thought the vertical stacking makes more efficient use of the light than the single layer you find in a farm or green house. I thought that means even though the light is produced inefficiently the vertical stacking cancels out that inefficiency. Moreover, the optimization of the plant's exposure to light through automated means adds to increased efficiency in the plant's use of the light.

Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#34

Post by a_bonobo »

This is good news for farmers around Fukushima - no-one buys food from there for obvious reasons, which is why they started to grow indoor hydroponic farms, but not on a large scale yet [1]. This way the plants don't get into contact with irradiated soil, but I doubt that people will buy them.

[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-10/fukushima-seeks-rev...

Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#35

Post by ChuckMcM »

sitkack wrote: post #29
ChuckMcM wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It uses fractional water resources, which from a substitution value in California at least, is a net 'savings'. Should we ever get to a point where power is massively abundant (fusion) the water use will be a factor as it is easier to transport electrons that desalinated water.

I an industrial setting, one could use a light pipe during the day augmented by LEDs on either side. In a near hermetic environment pests could be kept under control w/o chemicals.

Light pipes, like green houses, have an issue that the light source is blocked by the first plant it hits :-). The thing the article calls out that is different is that by using these thin GE grow LEDs they were able to have stacks and stacks of grow rows in a relatively small space.

That said, I would not be surprised to see some farmers in the central valley move to more green houses given their water rationing.

Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#36

Post by idibidiart »

Hand wavy arguments as to why this is a bad idea are ... well, just hand wavy.

Solar is ~20% efficient LED's are less than ~40% efficient so you would need more land area for solar farms than you save by growing indoors. On top of that you need to pay for all your capital costs. There are other issues, but if this was close to cost effective you would be seeing this in Iceland which gets little sunlight in the winter and has cheap energy costs. Instead they use suplimental lighting inside green houses to boost production.

>>

I thought the vertical stacking makes more efficient use of the light than the single layer you find in a farm or green house. It means that even though the light is produced inefficiently the vertical stacking is intended to cancel out that inefficiency by using the light more efficiently. Moreover, the optimization of the plant's exposure to light through automated means adds to increased efficiency in the plant's use of the light.

If every grower did this, it would (or could) destroy Monsanto's business model. I love it.

Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#37

Post by Xixi »

Retric wrote: post #30
idibidiart wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar is not free above sunk cost? We've ran a whole house in AZ exclusively on solar the last 7 years, with a ~$40K investment. Would this consume so much electricity that the initial cost will not be recouped before the solar system degrades beyond use? What's the math you're inferring from?

Solar is ~20% efficient LED's are less than ~40% efficient so you would need more land area for solar farms than you save by growing indoors. On top of that you need to pay for all your capital costs. There are other issues, but if this was close to cost effective you would be seeing this in Iceland which gets little sunlight in the winter and has cheap energy costs. Instead they use suplimental lighting inside green…

You are forgetting a "small" difference between Japan and Iceland: Japan is overpopulated and doesn't have enough land to grow its own food, thus relying on importations to feed itself. On the other hand Iceland is mostly empty.

As you can imagine the price of land is quite different...

Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#38

Post by Retric »

Xixi wrote: post #37
Retric wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar is ~20% efficient LED's are less than ~40% efficient so you would need more land area for solar farms than you save by growing indoors. On top of that you need to pay for all your capital costs. There are other issues, but if this was close to cost effective you would be seeing this in Iceland which gets little sunlight in the winter and has cheap energy costs. Instead they use suplimental lighting inside green…

You are forgetting a "small" difference between Japan and Iceland: Japan is overpopulated and doesn't have enough land to grow its own food, thus relying on importations to feed itself. On the other hand Iceland is mostly empty. As you can imagine the price of land is quite different...

68.4% of Japan is forests. (Just look at some aerial maps). The issue is japan is not flat not that it's overcrowded. Even still they have enough room for 1.2 million cows which is horribly inefficient use of farm land.

PS: They have had rice subsidies over 700% and it's still not cost effective to convert more forests to farmland. Growing food in doors works due to subsides but it's hardly necessary.

Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#39

Post by Retric »

idibidiart wrote: post #33
Retric wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar is ~20% efficient LED's are less than ~40% efficient so you would need more land area for solar farms than you save by growing indoors. On top of that you need to pay for all your capital costs. There are other issues, but if this was close to cost effective you would be seeing this in Iceland which gets little sunlight in the winter and has cheap energy costs. Instead they use suplimental lighting inside green…

I thought the vertical stacking makes more efficient use of the light than the single layer you find in a farm or green house. I thought that means even though the light is produced inefficiently the vertical stacking cancels out that inefficiency. Moreover, the optimization of the plant's exposure to light through automated means adds to increased efficiency in the plant's use of the light.

Numbers matter.

45% of the light is in the photosynthetic active wavelength range in a normal farm vs ~20% solar panels w/ transmission conversion losses etc + 40% LED = ~8% of the incoming light is now useful for photosynthesis.

So, you need a huge increase in efficiency ~400+% just to break even.

PS: Not that their using solar power, but it's still worth considering.

Re: Japanese Farmer Builds High-Tech Indoor Veggie Factory

#40

Post by idibidiart »

Retric wrote: post #39
idibidiart wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the vertical stacking makes more efficient use of the light than the single layer you find in a farm or green house. I thought that means even though the light is produced inefficiently the vertical stacking cancels out that inefficiency. Moreover, the optimization of the plant's exposure to light through automated means adds to increased efficiency in the plant's use of the light.

Numbers matter. 45% of the light is in the photosynthetic active wavelength range in a normal farm vs ~20% solar panels w/ transmission conversion losses etc + 40% LED = ~8% of the incoming light is now useful for photosynthesis. So, you need a huge increase in efficiency ~400+% just to break even. PS: Not that their using solar power, but it's still worth considering.

What does the 45% of light that is in the photosynthetic range have to do with the with the efficiency of solar cells and LEDs? It would be more direct to compare % of natural light that is in photosynthetic range with % of LED light that is in that range. If you have a formula on which you're basing your assumptions then write it down so I can understand and examine your logic without any misunderstanding. Else, you're making hand wavy assumptions, with statements like "numbers matters" without clearly stated relationship between said numbers.
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