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Re: undefined

#11

Hmmm.. but how did the theorem prover find the solution? Probably by heuristics + brute force.

I'm not well-versed on this topic, but I believe this [1] is presently the state of the art. I'd be curious to know whether or not Z3 performance beats GNU's prolog implementation for similar problem sets.

1: http://www.gprolog.org/#TOChead

Re: undefined

#12

I'm disappointed. I thought I was going to see the solver generates code that finds the largest palindrome. I recall how mini-Kanren was used to generate quines. Z3 should be capable of similar feats.

Yeah, that was my first thought, too, but the article is still inspirational. Could code generation ever be fast enough for practical problems? I'm wondering how far we could get if the generated code for each problem is cached between compiles (so we build up a huge database of solutions over time) and also reused, based on the satisfied constraints, when searching for solutions to more complex problems (much like d…

I good start might be getting RSpec and generating the correct scaffolds for it in Rails. It would only work for a tiny subset of problems but it would be a start, and also produce something many web developers could see the real world use for.

Re: undefined

#13
Notice George Sakkis's comment to the post, the maximize function doesn't work well without the additional unexplained heuristic:

  Why did you need to change "(assert (and (>= a 1) (

Re: undefined

#14

If this interests you, please do check out prolog. Declarative languages let you do something quite similar. In particular, they let you specify what you want the computer to give you rather than what you want the computer to do. Believe it or not, a very good example of such a language which you might be familiar with is SQL.

I don't believe it, because I use SQL every day, and I need to tell it which rows to lock when reading, whether to read them in share mode or fully, sometimes I need to help it figure out which indexes to use (of course I also have to manually set up the indexes too), when doing transactions I need to tell it how exactly to isolate the transaction, and I need to be very careful how I order my queries in order to avoid deadlocks.

SQL is declarative only when you don't care about data integrity and performance.

Maybe a bit better example for this kind of behavior are compilers. They're pretty "declarative" these days. You write what code you want to compile, and the compiler will pass it through a thousand transformation stages, deciding which trick to apply at every instruction, which code isn't really needed and so on.

Of course, then you also need to deal with compilers getting it wrong too, so you start tweaking your code with special words like "volatile" and "restricted", mess with compiler options, and sometimes even disassemble code to see why turning the "fast" options makes your code slow. But in general, high quality compilers do this dance way better than SQL.

So what's the moral here? Two things.

First, calling something "declarative" doesn't really mean anything. It means the language is built on a very thick abstraction that lets the computer do more work than usual, so you can do less work.

Second, thick abstractions are leaky. Works for basic cases, past that you'll still end up doing a lot of work, but now you have to fight your computer while doing it, as well.

The Z3 Theorem Prover is an interesting toy, but I wouldn't trust it to do anything right in the real world. Much like most Microsoft Research projects, unfortunately.

Re: undefined

#15
If you're interested in declarative programming, you should also have a look at answer set programming. Here's an ASP version of the problem that additionally requires prime factors.

  domain(100..999).
  digit(0..9).
  
  % Variation w/ prime factors
  prime(P) :- domain(P), { domain(F) : F 
Superficially it resembles Prolog, but brings "true" declarativity to the table, i.e., the order of rules and the order of atoms in the body is negligible. Various notions of safety and the prohibition of nested complex terms (e.g. `f(f(x))') guarantee termination. Most importantly though, solutions to an answer set program are not proofs (as in Prolog) but truth-assignments of atoms ("answer sets"). In this specific encoding there's no significant difference though, as we're only computing a single answer set containing an atom "pdMax(X)" with the maximum palindrome X.

Solving answer set programs usually involves heuristics and much work along the lines of SAT solving. Recent solvers such as clasp [1] are surprising efficient though and rival state of the art SAT solvers.

[1] http://potassco.sourceforge.net/

Re: undefined

#16

If this interests you, please do check out prolog. Declarative languages let you do something quite similar. In particular, they let you specify what you want the computer to give you rather than what you want the computer to do. Believe it or not, a very good example of such a language which you might be familiar with is SQL.

I don't believe it, because I use SQL every day, and I need to tell it which rows to lock when reading, whether to read them in share mode or fully, sometimes I need to help it figure out which indexes to use (of course I also have to manually set up the indexes too), when doing transactions I need to tell it how exactly to isolate the transaction, and I need to be very careful how I order my queries in order to avoi…

So, when I say SQL, I meant ansi SQL, not PL/SQL, or any of the other various extensions of the language. Neither is purely declarative, but the prior is much closer.

Also I wasn't suggesting that declarative languages are broadly useful (in fact I'd suggest quite the opposite), just that they are very interesting.

Re: undefined

#17
post #7

So, why someone don't write a stuff like this that takes your source code with tests and "builds" your app by creating the files in your dist without tests? - I write the tests - I run the compiler which transforms the tests into implementation - Run the implementation Is this even possible at all in meaningful time?

Yes, you're talking about Coq. The system in this post is a fairly simple one based on unification; Coq is a full-blown theorem prover.

Re: undefined

#18
post #7

So, why someone don't write a stuff like this that takes your source code with tests and "builds" your app by creating the files in your dist without tests? - I write the tests - I run the compiler which transforms the tests into implementation - Run the implementation Is this even possible at all in meaningful time?

There is an interesting area of computer science called [inductive programming](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_programming) dedicated to this sort of thing, though in a slightly different way than shown in this blog post.

Re: undefined

#19

If this interests you, please do check out prolog. Declarative languages let you do something quite similar. In particular, they let you specify what you want the computer to give you rather than what you want the computer to do. Believe it or not, a very good example of such a language which you might be familiar with is SQL.

Worth noting though that Prolog will do similar things only with finite domain solvers, which are all extensions to the language. Otherwise it's just a search with backtracking (read: brute-force) with well-defined semantics.

Re: undefined

#20

If this interests you, please do check out prolog. Declarative languages let you do something quite similar. In particular, they let you specify what you want the computer to give you rather than what you want the computer to do. Believe it or not, a very good example of such a language which you might be familiar with is SQL.

Prolog is the kind of language that is sold on being declarative, but ultimately you have to study how the unification algorithm works. And probably also sprinkle cuts around your code in order to not let the runtime do too much work, or maybe so that it will work correctly.

Granted I've only used it in one university course (and only half of that course).

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