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A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

nytimes.com

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Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#41

Post by silentvoice »

paulwithap wrote: post #37
silentvoice wrote: post #29

The language of AA and other programs like them have failure as a built-in premise of attendance. Just by insisting on abstinence assumes that failure is the only possible outcome of non-abstinence, however moderated or controlled that non-abstinence is. First and foremost obviously one has to clear themselves of physical addiction, which in most cases should be done with professional medical guidance. Afterwards com…

The entire point of AA is not to focus on the singular behavior of problem drinking, but instead to produce a complete psychic change. The central theme of the "Big Book" is that simply removing the alcohol from an alcoholic is not enough. The alcoholic must instead completely change their way of living and interacting with others. The program is designed to address the root cause of many specific issues the founders…

I've had this discussion before and it usually boils down to someone having a non-traditional view of the 12 steps. I read them at face value: Admitting one has no control over an addiction and relying on a higher power to address it is incompatible with my view of finding the underlying cause.

Whether what you say is official canon or not doesn't seem to matter to the reality of how it's managed at the group level. There seems to be for example a very wide variation in how people interpret the "12 steps," particularly amongst atheists or agnostics.

I am glad that medical assistance is encouraged at the very least.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#42

Post by randomflavor »

silentvoice wrote: post #41
paulwithap wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point of AA is not to focus on the singular behavior of problem drinking, but instead to produce a complete psychic change. The central theme of the "Big Book" is that simply removing the alcohol from an alcoholic is not enough. The alcoholic must instead completely change their way of living and interacting with others. The program is designed to address the root cause of many specific issues the founders…

I've had this discussion before and it usually boils down to someone having a non-traditional view of the 12 steps. I read them at face value: Admitting one has no control over an addiction and relying on a higher power to address it is incompatible with my view of finding the underlying cause. Whether what you say is official canon or not doesn't seem to matter to the reality of how it's managed at the group level.…

The idea of a higher power is simply faith that life is good. many addicts have an auto response to everything in life as being shit, and this warps perception. Most non faith based people actually are quite faith based in that they believe things will work out well when they put their energy into it. That is faith. Many addicts do not have that innate understanding. The 12 steps is just a set of skills to obtain that world view.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#43

Post by mcelreath »

jqm wrote: post #31
danesparza wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me, I'm not sure which right you're referring to. The text of the first amendment of the United States of America reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." AA (in my unders…

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.." When you force people into a program that references some idea of God you are doing exactly that..

I've been in AA for years, and I agree with this - not just because of the establishment clause (which is reason enough), but because on the AA side we specifically state in our preamble that 'AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution.' Making it a government-sanctioned and non-voluntary program violates one of the core organizing principles of AA that has allowed it to last this long. The judicial system should concentrate on medical/behavioral/psychological research and let the leave the twelve-step groups alone.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#44

Post by jqm »

Stronico wrote: post #40
jqm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.." When you force people into a program that references some idea of God you are doing exactly that..

I think the alternative to AA meetings is usually jail time - so it probably is to some degree voluntary.

I don't call that voluntary any more than I call a check ballot for or against Hitler a democracy.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#45

Post by mcelreath »

DanBC wrote: post #36
humanrebar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When doing scientific research, absolutely. When making a personal decision, it's foolish to ignore first-hand experience just as it's foolish to ignore advice from experts.

> When making a personal decision, it's foolish to ignore first-hand experience Isn't this exactly the kind of thinking that makes people believe that homeopathy works?

Not exactly. You can have the opinion that Homeopathy as a medical treatment is a complete sham and 'does't work' and back up that opinion with research, but while there is debate as to the relative merit of 12-step programs compared to other forms of treatment, it would be strange to assert that they simply don't work for anyone ever.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#46

Post by dobbsbob »

randomflavor wrote: post #42
silentvoice wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had this discussion before and it usually boils down to someone having a non-traditional view of the 12 steps. I read them at face value: Admitting one has no control over an addiction and relying on a higher power to address it is incompatible with my view of finding the underlying cause. Whether what you say is official canon or not doesn't seem to matter to the reality of how it's managed at the group level.…

The idea of a higher power is simply faith that life is good. many addicts have an auto response to everything in life as being shit, and this warps perception. Most non faith based people actually are quite faith based in that they believe things will work out well when they put their energy into it. That is faith. Many addicts do not have that innate understanding. The 12 steps is just a set of skills to obtain tha…

The idea of a higher power is a deity and nothing else. AA spells this out further with 6 more steps that specifically refer to said deity. They encourage a group confessional and penance to be absolved of your behaviour or crimes while wasted. Abstinence is the only solution because religions do not tolerate anything else. For some people belief in superstition will help them get off the booze/drugs for others it won't work. Detox supervised by medical staff and a regular visit to a shrink to help you with impulse control is all that is needed. Unfortunately this costs money which many addicts don't have so they are stuck with AA who are unable to assess their program failure rate because it would be admitting that God has failed.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#47

Post by seanflyon »

jqm wrote: post #31
danesparza wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me, I'm not sure which right you're referring to. The text of the first amendment of the United States of America reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." AA (in my unders…

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.." When you force people into a program that references some idea of God you are doing exactly that..

A state court forcing someone to do something is not Congress, nor is it making a law. You are reacting to what you want it to say, not what is actually written.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#48

Post by duaneb »

silentvoice wrote: post #41
paulwithap wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point of AA is not to focus on the singular behavior of problem drinking, but instead to produce a complete psychic change. The central theme of the "Big Book" is that simply removing the alcohol from an alcoholic is not enough. The alcoholic must instead completely change their way of living and interacting with others. The program is designed to address the root cause of many specific issues the founders…

I've had this discussion before and it usually boils down to someone having a non-traditional view of the 12 steps. I read them at face value: Admitting one has no control over an addiction and relying on a higher power to address it is incompatible with my view of finding the underlying cause. Whether what you say is official canon or not doesn't seem to matter to the reality of how it's managed at the group level.…

The higher power may be explicitly christian many times, but the way it integrates with AA means you really only need faith that you don't need the substance and that you can live a good life without it. Many people find this idea easier to grasp in a spiritual context where they it's much easier to hold faith in spite of what their brain tells them.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#49

Post by azinman2 »

amasad wrote: post #16

A really new technique for fighting addiction I've been hearing about lately is Ayahuasca. It is a psychedelic brew that originates from the Amazon. I remember watching an episode of Vice (which I can seem to find) following a heroin addict through his Ayahuasca trip to get rid of his addiction and they claimed that it worked and he didn't get back to it.

I think it's specific to heroine or drugs that chemically work similarly.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#50

Post by dragonwriter »

seanflyon wrote: post #47
jqm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.." When you force people into a program that references some idea of God you are doing exactly that..

A state court forcing someone to do something is not Congress, nor is it making a law. You are reacting to what you want it to say, not what is actually written.

> A state court forcing someone to do something is not Congress

Which is why its not an independent First Amendment issue, but a Fourteenth Amendment issue, however, as it is well-settled law that the scope of the rights considered fundamental to the concept of ordered liberty and thereby incorporated against the States under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment includes the entirety of the protections of the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses of the First Amendment, the usual legal analysis of religious freedom issues, whether state or federal, is under the First Amendment logic applied the same way whether the government involved is state or federal.

> nor is it making a law.

It is either (a) enforcing a law that Congress or a state legislature made (which law, if it violates First Amendment religious freedoms, violates the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment when a State does it or the applicable clause of the First when the federal government does it) or (b) depriving someone of Constitutional liberty without a basis in law in the first place (which also violates the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment when a State does it, and the Due Process Clause of the 5th Amendment if it were a federal court.)

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