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Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

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Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#51

Post by andyjohnson0 »

CSDude wrote: post #4

It reminds me http://xkcd.com/934/ for most simple users. What a government officer do at his/her workstation? They probably have every service through web pages, almost nobody builds native programs anymore. And for the most cases LibreOffice is not perfect, but adequate to do simple jobs. So it is very logical to use something free for these tasks, to replace Windows+Office and save money.

"...almost nobody builds native programs anymore."

Outside of the HN echo chamber there are thousands of companies building native applications, which are used by millions of organisations around the world. Not everything is delivered via the web.

Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#52

Post by pjc50 »

waps wrote: post #34
brusch64 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wonder if LibreOffice is not totally adequate for the users in the city of Munich. I know that it has its problems if you want to use it with Word generated documents, and it obviously has problems with add-ons developed for Word. But I could really think that it works quite nice, if all your documents are generated for LibreOffice. I am using Open / LibreOffice since nearly 10 years exclusively at home and…

I think this is really sad. As someone who went through university when the last wave of centralized unix died off, then the move to decentralized windows, and to decentralized linux (because they couldn't really figure it out mostly). I found that move to decentralization and the availability of compilers and tools and dev. environments and easy ways to get admin privileges, well I credit that with my learning how t…

Compiling anything under linux without root is almost impossible

This is bizarre, and very much not true. If you have a C compiler and sufficient disk space you can build whatever you want in your home directory. It might take a while, but most things that use autoconf will accept `--prefix=/home/user/stuff/` and target that location.

Not having a C compiler is rare as it tends to be deep in the requirements chain of other packages. For other languages, I believe Python is mandatory on Redhat and Perl on Debian, if you don't mind old versions.

Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#53

Post by chrisBob »

perlgeek wrote: post #40
CSDude wrote: post #4

It reminds me http://xkcd.com/934/ for most simple users. What a government officer do at his/her workstation? They probably have every service through web pages, almost nobody builds native programs anymore. And for the most cases LibreOffice is not perfect, but adequate to do simple jobs. So it is very logical to use something free for these tasks, to replace Windows+Office and save money.

The problem is usually interacting with other agencies; those don't have well-defined data formats for data interchange, instead they often work with forms in Word documents, and require the document to be edited with a very specific version of MS Word. Of course that makes interaction harder. The technical lead of the LiMux project told a story once about a German federal agency that required documents to be submitt…

I am sure that requirements like this aren't that unusual (the NIH requires grants to be submitted in one of 3 fonts), but an arbitrary rule shouldn't be confused with a compatibility issue.

Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#54

Post by chrisBob »

I am not at all surprised that this worked. The biggest problem for mainstream linux is poor advertising. People with limited computer knowledge are just scared of change, and honestly, if no one knows how to pronounce Ubuntu then they are probably not going to pick a computer based on it.

I mostly use Windows 7 and OS X, but I have worked with Debian/Ubuntu as a casual user. Linux was much easier to work with than Windows 8.1, but 90% of the population doesn't know that. Most people would be as happy, or happier with Linux if there was just one big advertising campaign.

Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#55

Post by kuschku »

macco wrote: post #21
zanny wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not, unless there are Ubuntu computers available in stores. I actually know there are some German laws requiring computers be made available with varying or no OS, so it is much more likely than it is stateside to find an Ubuntu machine in store.

Unfortunately this is not the case. I only new 2 Online-Stores in Germany that sell Ubuntu maschines - one is my own: http://rockiger.com/ On the other hand, System76 computers are not available in Germany. Best bet is probably is Sputnik from Dell, although their Ubuntu configuration is not that good.

Notebooksbilliger.de sells all the laptops in their student lineup without OS – I bought my laptop there to save the license cost.

Sometimes you can also find occasionally a laptop in a store with FreeDOS, but I've never seen one being sold with Ubuntu.

Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#56

Post by alkonaut »

aagd wrote: post #47

What about long-term compatibility of Microsoft (or Apple) products? How can proprietary, maybe even binary file-formats be accessed in 100 years from now? Cities usually keep their books forever. I have so many files from the nineties that are already very difficult to restore. I could imagine that open source formats have a huge advantage here?! #LongtermCosts

Short term costs work the other way though: every company or organization needs to be able to read an office file in the latest format, edit it, and return it to the sender with full fidelity. If OpenOffice inserts a page break where MS office wouldn't have, that is a problem. The open programs read docx reasonably well, but implementing ms word clean room with all it's behaviors is near impossible, and every difference hides a cost for the users that communicate.

Within an organization you could agree to use some open format (regardless of word processor), and you could archive in some long term format. But you can't change the fact that incoming documents will be in the format that Microsofts latest word processor spits out, and you never want to have that nagging feeling that your word processor may have misread it ever so slightly.

Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#57

Post by gburnett »

brusch64 wrote: post #19
CSDude wrote: post #4

It reminds me http://xkcd.com/934/ for most simple users. What a government officer do at his/her workstation? They probably have every service through web pages, almost nobody builds native programs anymore. And for the most cases LibreOffice is not perfect, but adequate to do simple jobs. So it is very logical to use something free for these tasks, to replace Windows+Office and save money.

I really wonder if LibreOffice is not totally adequate for the users in the city of Munich. I know that it has its problems if you want to use it with Word generated documents, and it obviously has problems with add-ons developed for Word. But I could really think that it works quite nice, if all your documents are generated for LibreOffice. I am using Open / LibreOffice since nearly 10 years exclusively at home and…

I use LibreOffice in an environment where almost every other user uses Microsoft Office tools. I've had difficulty with some documents in the docx format. Most of the documents will turn out to be ok but when certain types of formatting are included problems start to appear.

Most of the problems come from, I think, unnecessary features. For example a footer for the author's name on each page.

Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#58

Post by alkonaut »

The costs seem to mention training and support, but not comparing productivity makes it useless. It's like arguing that you can use the Gimp rather than photoshop, which is only true until you try.

The whole point of software is that it increases productivity (word processor rather than typewriter). While it may be the case that Linux and open source alternatives saves a bunch on licenses, I don't buy the argument that it is an amount "saved" until thurough research is made in the productivity of the users.

Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#59

Post by rmc »

aagd wrote: post #47

What about long-term compatibility of Microsoft (or Apple) products? How can proprietary, maybe even binary file-formats be accessed in 100 years from now? Cities usually keep their books forever. I have so many files from the nineties that are already very difficult to restore. I could imagine that open source formats have a huge advantage here?! #LongtermCosts

There are legal problems with binary file formats. Let's say someone comes forward allegating corruption 20 years ago and starts suing the city. Can the city prove that it was all above board? Well no-one can read the files anymore....

Re: Ubuntu and open source help the City of Munich save millions

#60

Post by izacus »

gburnett wrote: post #57
brusch64 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wonder if LibreOffice is not totally adequate for the users in the city of Munich. I know that it has its problems if you want to use it with Word generated documents, and it obviously has problems with add-ons developed for Word. But I could really think that it works quite nice, if all your documents are generated for LibreOffice. I am using Open / LibreOffice since nearly 10 years exclusively at home and…

I use LibreOffice in an environment where almost every other user uses Microsoft Office tools. I've had difficulty with some documents in the docx format. Most of the documents will turn out to be ok but when certain types of formatting are included problems start to appear. Most of the problems come from, I think, unnecessary features. For example a footer for the author's name on each page.

Really? A footer with a value from variable is "unnecessary" feature?
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