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Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

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Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#261

Post by pjmlp »

eru wrote: post #182
rakoo wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not having that level of depth kinda worries me I see 2 domains where this level of depth matters: - performance (speed, resource consumption) - security If you're not doing one of those, you shouldn't have to care about them, especially if this is your first programming language ever .

And C++ is horrible for security. By default it inherits C's no-checks-at-all, give-me-performance-or-give-me-death mentality.

While true, at least modern C++ provides the tools to write secure code, if one wishes to do so.

Whereas with bare C, there is no hope.

Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#262

Post by ausjke »

I honestly foresaw this and advised my kids to learn Python, it's the new BASIC and the new JAVA-in-college. That does not mean Python is better than others, but it does fit a niche in the education system somehow.

For EE major etc I would still recommend the plain C stuff though. For web-design etc Javascript might be a better course. Overall Python is a nice choice for the generic public.

Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#263

Post by McP »

chillingeffect wrote: post #252
area51org wrote: post #249

I know, I know, what I'm about to say is just an artifact of the Language Wars and will cost me karma. I can't help myself. We should not be teaching impressionable students that whitespace has semantic significance. This is a fundamental design flaw of Python, and it's just a Bad Idea. Sorry, Guido.

Iagree100%.Therereallyisnoreasontoattributetheattributeofseman ticallysignificanttowhitepsace.Justasineverydaylanguage,comput erprogrammersshouldhavethefreedomtonotusewhitespaceastheyseefi t,justasmusicshouldnothaverests;it'sonlythenotesthathavemeanin g.Finally,gentlepeople,Iimploreyouthatwallsinhousesshouldbemad einfinitesimallythin,too,becauseIseenoneedtoseparateanything.

Can someone delete this comment please? I'd like to read the other comments here but this one means I've got to scroll back and forth for each line :(

Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#264

Post by lmm »

dragonwriter wrote: post #112
lmm wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say just the opposite. Variables are hard , in a way that you don't even notice as an experienced programmer, but when we write x = 1 x = 2 that's immediately very confusing for a beginner - are we saying that 1=2? If we stick to immutable values and recursion, and functions that are, well, functions, we get something that corresponds quite closely to first-year mathematics, which makes it easy to learn at the sa…

Most Python material that I've seen that is an intro course makes limited use of changing variable [1] values , being written in a mostly-functional style (generally, preferring, at least initially, recursion to iteration to achieve that -- even though recursion is generally the wrong approach in production Python code.) Using a modern imperative language doesn't prevent you from adding complexity a bit at a time, an…

> preferring, at least initially, recursion to iteration to achieve that -- even though recursion is generally the wrong approach in production Python code

Exactly! Intro courses are usually - with good reason - taught in functional style. Which suggests that a language where that style is more natural and appropriate might be a better fit for those courses than Python.

(Though OTOH I wouldn't advocate a language where IO is anything more complex than a function call)

Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#265

Post by VexXtreme »

chillingeffect wrote: post #252
area51org wrote: post #249

I know, I know, what I'm about to say is just an artifact of the Language Wars and will cost me karma. I can't help myself. We should not be teaching impressionable students that whitespace has semantic significance. This is a fundamental design flaw of Python, and it's just a Bad Idea. Sorry, Guido.

Iagree100%.Therereallyisnoreasontoattributetheattributeofseman ticallysignificanttowhitepsace.Justasineverydaylanguage,comput erprogrammersshouldhavethefreedomtonotusewhitespaceastheyseefi t,justasmusicshouldnothaverests;it'sonlythenotesthathavemeanin g.Finally,gentlepeople,Iimploreyouthatwallsinhousesshouldbemad einfinitesimallythin,too,becauseIseenoneedtoseparateanything.

You know what man, FUCK YOU. You broke the layout of the discussion for everyone and it's next to impossible to follow the conversation without a ton of horizontal scrolling. Take your trolling elsewhere, it's not welcome here.

Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#266

Post by Kurtz79 »

It's very interesting. My introductory course was in C, but on my last year they already had switched to Java.

I think Python nowadays is really the better choice: although C has its own merits (and it should be taught at a later course, possibly together with embedded systems) , it introduces more complexity than necessary.

Python, with its readability and "batteries included" is really the ideal language for an introductory course, not to mention that it has potential lifelong use as a "Swiss Knife" type of language.

Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#267

Post by corford »

ufo wrote: post #62
fithisux wrote: post #2

a language without types, without extensive research? Then, why not C/D/Pascal. i strongly believe for universities sml/ocaml/haskell or even rust are far better choices. I prefer sml.

1. C, D and Pascal dont have garbage collection. 2. An argument can be made for starting with dynamically typed languages before moving to static typing.

Actually, D has garbage collection.

Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#268

Post by NinjaViking »

McP wrote: post #263
chillingeffect wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iagree100%.Therereallyisnoreasontoattributetheattributeofseman ticallysignificanttowhitepsace.Justasineverydaylanguage,comput erprogrammersshouldhavethefreedomtonotusewhitespaceastheyseefi t,justasmusicshouldnothaverests;it'sonlythenotesthathavemeanin g.Finally,gentlepeople,Iimploreyouthatwallsinhousesshouldbemad einfinitesimallythin,too,becauseIseenoneedtoseparateanything.

Can someone delete this comment please? I'd like to read the other comments here but this one means I've got to scroll back and forth for each line :(

For a temporary solution, try right-clicking on it, select "inspect element" or something to that effect and deleting the text.

Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#269

Post by bicubic »

candeira wrote: post #106

I work at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia. Last year we moved our foundational course in data structures and algorithms from Java to Python, with great success. This is a course that used to be taught in C, then moved to Java. I tutored it as a Java course, and was in charge of adapting the tutorial (classroom exercises) and laboratory (programming assignments) materials when we started using Python to teac…

I'm so happy to hear that!

I graduated from Monash Clayton a few years ago when the Java train was in full effect and the focus on Java was a big source of frustration for me. I distinctly remember an algorithms & data structures assignment about Markov chains which had to be done in Java. I spent a good 40 minutes writing what was effectively boilerplate to load the provided files into a meaningful representation and then just snapped and did the entire assignment in Python in maybe 15 minutes. Its crazy how much Java gets in your way for small projects.

Even though it was made clear that Python submissions won't be accepted, my tutor was very understanding and gave me full marks after I stepped him through the code. If that tutor was you, I owe you.

Re: Python is now the most popular introductory language at top U.S. universities

#270

Post by gpvos »

chillingeffect wrote: post #252
area51org wrote: post #249

I know, I know, what I'm about to say is just an artifact of the Language Wars and will cost me karma. I can't help myself. We should not be teaching impressionable students that whitespace has semantic significance. This is a fundamental design flaw of Python, and it's just a Bad Idea. Sorry, Guido.

Iagree100%.Therereallyisnoreasontoattributetheattributeofseman ticallysignificanttowhitepsace.Justasineverydaylanguage,comput erprogrammersshouldhavethefreedomtonotusewhitespaceastheyseefi t,justasmusicshouldnothaverests;it'sonlythenotesthathavemeanin g.Finally,gentlepeople,Iimploreyouthatwallsinhousesshouldbemad einfinitesimallythin,too,becauseIseenoneedtoseparateanything.

People, if you install a comment collapser like the greasemonkey script on this page, you can hide the above post.

http://alexander.kirk.at/2010/02/16/collapsible-threads-for-...

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