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Subtle -isms at Hacker School

hackerschool.com

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Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#61

Post by colomon »

fred_durst wrote: post #9
HarrietJones wrote: post #4

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

I would have to agree. To me "Subtle-isms" could lead to a culture of fear. When a mistake is vague and hard to understand, there becomes a certain amount of probability involved in making a mistake. Therefore those who are the most active could end up with the most mistakes. In this case, those who engage most with those around them, will likely break the most "Subtle-isms". This policy may simply reward the quiet s…

Or in the case of "you guys", the mistake is perfectly clear, but it's 1) in no way intended to be sexist and 2) deeply ingrained in the culture I grew up in. I can understand why someone might object, but the fact is it is the standard gender-neutral second person plural pronoun around here. If my wife was going into town with her best friend, I would not hesitate to ask her "How long will you guys be gone?" nor would she give me an odd look if I did.

I can easily imagine people making a fuss about this leading to a state of near constant self-monitoring, and I'd probably get excited and slip up on a regular basis...

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#62

Post by nicholasjbs »

ahh wrote: post #51
nicholasjbs wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shaming rituals, however light in touch they are, rarely improve things. This is in no way a "shaming ritual." It isn't intended to be one, and it hasn't become one in practice. I'm one of the founders of Hacker School. I can't stand politics. If these rules actually created the environment you're imagining, we'd get rid of them immediately. Thankfully, we have several years of experience now and we've found that hav…

> If these rules actually created the environment you're imagining Of course they don't, for the people you think are high status. Male losers like me get hosed, but who cares what kulaks think?

I'm a straight, white, upper-middle class guy. Do you honestly believe I've dedicated the past four years of my life to making an environment that's terrible for myself and others like me?

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#63

Post by ibejoeb »

Zikes wrote: post #6
HarrietJones wrote: post #4

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

The ban on debates is particularly jarring. I get the idea, a debate could easily turn into a heated argument, but if someone told me I am being sexist or homophobic when I am not then I'm certainly not going to apologize for it. If they want to maintain a civil environment that's able to call out subtle -isms, then they should simply accept "no, it wasn't" just as freely as "oops, sorry".

Now we watch as the debate happens here by throwaway proxy.

I'm certainly not going to attend HS, so do what you want, I suppose. I probably won't be hiring anyone who comes out of the program, either. I can't imagine interacting with a product of this environment. So conditioned to avoid not just confrontation but plain discourse.

This is a social lobotomy.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#64

Post by wmj »

resu_nimda wrote: post #35
invadedby wrote: post #14

This is a throwaway account. I feel we are being invaded. The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. It developed through text were it hardly matter who was on the other side of the connection, only skills and thoughts mattered. Those were the good old days, when we were free. Now we are being invaded. We, like every other culture in the world, are ask to not use certain la…

The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. This reads like a 4chan teenager's manifesto. Alright, a bunch of nerds in their basements who are just so edgy and can say whatever they want. Badass! Well, you might be pleased to know that you're totally free to carry on the misanthropy club in plenty of areas of the internet. But here on Hacker News, and apparently especially a…

What do you have against teenagers?

That whole spiel is most unsubtly ageist.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#65

Post by resu_nimda »

invadedby wrote: post #47
resu_nimda wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. This reads like a 4chan teenager's manifesto. Alright, a bunch of nerds in their basements who are just so edgy and can say whatever they want. Badass! Well, you might be pleased to know that you're totally free to carry on the misanthropy club in plenty of areas of the internet. But here on Hacker News, and apparently especially a…

This reads like a 4chan teenager's manifesto. a bunch of nerds in their basements How can you talk that way and the next moment talk about fostering inclusion?

You do have a point - I did succumb to the temptation to hyperbolize, which made my argument weaker. But the point still stands.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#66

Post by streptomycin »

api wrote: post #5

I ask this as a general question to all of tech culture, not to just this particular setting: What about subtile elitism? It's one of the biggest subtile -isms I've run into. If you didn't go to a top ten university, you're sort of in a lower echelon in the tech world. In practice this subtilely selects for people from higher socioeconomic backgrounds and/or people who have an "academic-oriented" learning style as op…

Is that unique to tech? Seems like nearly every industry is biased towards rich people from elite schools.

If anything, tech is better because the barrier to entry is low and you can relatively easily prove yourself with your code. Like... have a great idea for a most types of businesses? Great, you just need millions in funding and then you can start. Have a great idea that for a business that can be done mostly in software? Great, get to work.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#67

Post by wmj »

rev_bird wrote: post #54
invadedby wrote: post #14

This is a throwaway account. I feel we are being invaded. The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. It developed through text were it hardly matter who was on the other side of the connection, only skills and thoughts mattered. Those were the good old days, when we were free. Now we are being invaded. We, like every other culture in the world, are ask to not use certain la…

The "no debate" thing seems really odd and control-freakish on their part, I'll give you that. But if you look at people trying to make tech a more inclusive community and call it an "invasion," you're reflecting the exact view that made movements like this pop up. If "the good old days" were really that good, why have women been almost intentionally excluded from IT until relatively recently? Do you mean "good" for…

Women have never been excluded from IT.

They're either not capable or find it uninteresting, often both at the same time.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#68

Post by mcguire »

pbreit wrote: post #13

Really, there has to be a rule about not debating what an "-ism" is?? This seems a little much for a coding seminar. How about "Don't be a Jerk" or nothing at all.

True, 'cause, after all, the last thing jerks want is to spend an hour or so presenting arguments and evidences that they aren't really jerks, after such as been pointed out to them.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#69

Post by streptomycin »

thumbtackthief wrote: post #58
streptomycin wrote: post #38

Although our employees are diverse on some axes, we're 90% white. There are also class barriers to attending Hacker School - while Hacker School is free, living in New York for three months is not. I can't help but laugh sometimes. Good thing all the rich white women feel comfortable! But seriously, how is it possible to have so few Asians? Usually the "problem" is that there are far too many. Maybe we need affirmati…

The employees--of which there are 7 or 8, I believe--are 90% white. Hardly a decent sample size. The attendees are much more diverse.

Good catch. That should be an easier problem to solve. If a few of them just volunteer to give their jobs to minorities, that will do wonders for diversity.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#70

Post by antics »

HarrietJones wrote: post #4

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

I was in the Summer 2013 batch.

Since this is the top-voted comment, let me be emphatic. The assumptions the parent comment makes about the HS experience bear no resemblance to reality. A good example is the consistent theme in this thread that such a rule can't exist without a shaming ritual, or without loss of being considered an adult.

The context we're missing here is that participants at HS are self-selecting. One person in our batch quit his job as director of investment technology at a massive international bank to attend HS; another was a high school student. In all cases, participation represents serious costs of opportunity, time, and capital, and almost always, the reason they do it is because:

Fundamentally, participants already believe in the assumptions of the environment.

There is room for this theoretical debate about whether x policy extends to good rules for all of society. But realistically, the HS rules are effective because people at HS agree with them.

To have this discussion without this specific context is to miss the point entirely.

That is why the rule can be lightweight, and can still be incredibly effective. And if you don't think that's true, then I suggest you poll a nontrivial subset of HS, because almost everyone agrees.

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