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Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

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Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#141

Sounded good untill I read: "I sincerely think it is quite unrealistic to ask a knowledge worker". What is this with you programmers that you think that you're the best thing that has happend to this world? It's just a job. No more a job then any other one. Same thing as that bullshit as companies that want every employee to program. Do you see CEO's with a background as a carpenter writing blogposts about how everyb…

What motivates your disdain?

What is this with you programmers that you think that you're the best thing that has happend to this world? It's just a job. No more a job then any other one.

...as evidenced by the equivalent years of training required to, say, use a shovel?

Self obsessed rich kids.

Don't assume that all of us are rich, or even solidly middle class. Sometimes startup founders (unwisely) spend years at or below poverty (been there, done that).

Do assume that anybody with ~average intelligence and above average motivation could become a programmer, though.

Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#142
post #78

Four hours per day of work where you are in high focus is about normal. You will see that professionals across many creative fields only work 4 hours per day. There are a lot of posts here from developers talking about how they are more productive than their peers working less hours. Really, they probably have the same capacity for hours, but the less productive developers are carrying a lot of baggage in attempting…

> Four hours per day of work where you are in high focus is about normal. You will see that professionals across many creative fields only work 4 hours per day. OK I'll bite. What are these fields? I think it is fanciful to call 4 hours per day 'normal'.

Most engineers don't consider meetings to be "work". It's pretty normal to only "work" for 4 hours (or even less) and spend the rest of your time on overhead - meetings etc.

Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#143
post #54

I've been working independently for some time now and I've noticed exactly the same thing - productiveness is significantly better when working less. However, I do handle many projects at the same time, but for each project I only hand the time when I've thought out what I'm going to build and how. I've also found that doing so gets you straight into the coders high. It's like that once you've set your mind onto the…

44€/hr is low, that's pretty much entry level for quality work. People routinely charge multiples of that amount; if I was to go back to contracting now, I'd be charging at least twice that much, probably more. Also, you should not allow a client to try to renegotiate price after the work has been delivered. Especially on a fixed bid project where they're satisfied with the results (BTW, you probably shouldn't be doi…

Thank you for your reply! I found it well thought and I'll surely memorize some bullet points for my later career.

I've been very humble with my pricing so far because people don't really take me seriously if I try to pull that kind of wages. You see, I have neither a degree or the age which would do the trick. Past work is kind of there, but instead of URLs the clients I've met in person just want to know whether their software can be done. Peers my age are working in labor jobs for the normal 9to5 and some even brag how they can pull out 17 hours of work in 24 hours. I've noticed that people treat software development with the very same idea, where the young have the endurance to pull out sick work hours and where more hours equals more work done. People seem to be afraid of hiring someone who says their hourly wage is starting from 40€, especially when the person can't, thanks to their lack of experience, say how many hours they'll eventually need. Therefore, for the sake of getting any clients in my first steps of lone entrepreneur, I've decided to stick with the lump sum.

It really is a pity that I can't get around keeping the work hours as my own business, but so far I've found it easier than introducing them completely new way of working, where part of the time is spent on thinking instead of doing work. Until the latest incident, I had never even crossed the idea that the client may think they are getting screwed, thinking that the work they asked was really just that easy to do (because I was left with so little hours).

But about the price negotiation, yes, I agree with you and I'll not let them do that. Our negotiations had no agreement on the hours I should spend, so they have no reason to drive the price down because of that.

I'm going to be honest with you and tell you that I haven't made a single black-on-white agreement on what defines "done". Instead, the idea has been that I'll remain as the lone owner of the software, with the exclusive rights to re-sell it. I'm currently looking for the chance of turning the software into a SaaS, in which the original client has agreed on helping me by referring businesses from the same field to use it. So basically, I'm charging the original client one year worth of the subscription I've been planning on selling it for. By so, I'm basically securing at least one customer for the service for one year. At the same time, I'll basically launch a service which has proven to have at least some kind of demand. Plus I get free marketing from the original client on the same run.

You see, if they would be able to refer even two customers, I'd be glad, as that's the turning point where it's financially sane for me to get a LLC for my programming work (that's a huge thing for me in a country where you lose most of welfare state's benefits by starting one). Everything above that is really just a bonus. But should I get 20 recurring sales, I'd already make enough money that I could live (in theory) the rest of my life with the money I make from the product per month. You could say it's a risky shot, but as long as I can do the thing I like and get paid for it, I'll keep choosing the risk.

Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#144
post #92
post #78

Four hours per day of work where you are in high focus is about normal. You will see that professionals across many creative fields only work 4 hours per day. There are a lot of posts here from developers talking about how they are more productive than their peers working less hours. Really, they probably have the same capacity for hours, but the less productive developers are carrying a lot of baggage in attempting…

Totally agree. 9-5 (or 9-6) engineering jobs are a bit crazy - no one is able to work productively for 8 hours, that's a fact. Many managers understand that and are cool with people just not doing work while at work... However, I would still prefer to go home than sitting and waiting for 5 or 6pm so I could do something more meaningful, because e.g. side-projects is a gray area while at work and that's fair. Even so,…

> no one is able to work productively for 8 hours, that's a fact

How do you know this? Are you sure you aren't extrapolating your own energy levels and assuming everyone else feels as you do?

I know plenty of people with phenomenal drive, focus and energy who are extremely productive for much longer work days.

My own situation is a counterexample. I am at my desk at 6:30am most days, can easily work 14+ hour days virtually without a break, never sleep more than 5 hours a night, and can keep that up indefinitely. I also fit in 2-3 hours sport a day, which is also technically very demanding and needs full concentration. My body may get physically exhausted but somehow my brain just keeps going.

To be fair, the friends of mine who work such extreme hours are all passionate about their jobs, and are the ones in ultimate control of their working hours. They do it out of choice, not because their boss tells them to. If they didn't like their work, they'd find it hard to stay focused for 8 hours too.

Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#145
post #94

Try being a lawyer.... 16 hours days standard and when you are being charged out at $500 / hour (and receiving maybe 20% of that) your boss isn't expecting 4 hours of real work and 12 hours of admin... they want 16 hours of extreme concentration. Gotta be one of the worst careers you can choose.

20% of $500 an hour is a pretty solid salary. Especially if you are putting in 16 hour days. I would expect to give a little blood for that kind of money.

Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#146
post #83

I am in my early 60s and I am retired now except for a little consulting and writing a book or two a year. That said, starting in the early 1970s working at a large defense contractor, I got in the habit of only working 32 hours a week (took Mondays off). I continued this process with several other companies until about 15 years ago when I converted to having a lifestyle 1-man consulting business. The deal is however…

Why is it not in a company's interest to have part-time employees? By anecdotal accounts, it seems that part-time employees are less expensive than full-timers (such anecdotes generally refer to mandated benefits for full-time workers as the major cost difference.)

Good question.

Every company I worked for had to provide me with an office that was empty one day a week.

In most of the companies I worked for, employees who worked a minimum of 30 hours a week got full fringe benefits :-)

Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#147

Sounded good untill I read: "I sincerely think it is quite unrealistic to ask a knowledge worker". What is this with you programmers that you think that you're the best thing that has happend to this world? It's just a job. No more a job then any other one. Same thing as that bullshit as companies that want every employee to program. Do you see CEO's with a background as a carpenter writing blogposts about how everyb…

I spent most of my childhood raised by a single mother below the poverty line thanks to a borderline-deadbeat dad, save for the period I lived with an abusive junkie stepfather. Today I help support disabled family members on my below-market salary.

Come call me a "self obsessed rich kid" to my face.

Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#148
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kind of simplistic response that prevents our society from progressing. "It's just the way it is" terminates any rational discussion or critical analysis of why we do things the way we do. There's no actual reason for everyone to be either unemployed or working themselves to the point of exhaustion against their will; it's "just" a structural and cultural problem. As soon as people start openly discussing…

I was suggesting that this is a fine way for things to be.

This is a terrible way for things to be. Life is a finite resource. I'd rather spend my time doing things for myself, even if it means I'm not rich.

Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#149
post #13

Many of my small business buddies [+] start with their first few programmers on this sort of schedule. It generally fits within their/our budgets, gets them continuity versus project-based freelancers, and doesn't cause them to have to compromise on their quality of life through managing you constantly. It isn't my place to mention the salaries I've heard but, anecdotally, they're a) more than anything I earned prior…

Why don't you want to talk about salaries? Lack of data is a huge problem in this space. I don't think anybody expects you to name the names of the people involved.

I'm a let-it-all-hang-out kind of guy, but there exists adequate specificity in my comment to narrow it down to less than five identifiable people. Neither they nor their employers have OKed me putting their salary on the public Internet. Accordingly, I politely decline to be more specific than I am currently being. (The bookends I mentioned earlier were intended to communicate "Between $30k and $100k.")

Re: Ask HN: 16-hour work week jobs?

#150
post #54

I've been working independently for some time now and I've noticed exactly the same thing - productiveness is significantly better when working less. However, I do handle many projects at the same time, but for each project I only hand the time when I've thought out what I'm going to build and how. I've also found that doing so gets you straight into the coders high. It's like that once you've set your mind onto the…

44€/hr is low, that's pretty much entry level for quality work. People routinely charge multiples of that amount; if I was to go back to contracting now, I'd be charging at least twice that much, probably more. Also, you should not allow a client to try to renegotiate price after the work has been delivered. Especially on a fixed bid project where they're satisfied with the results (BTW, you probably shouldn't be doi…

I was contracting about two years ago and charged €60/h. I'd charge closer to €100/h or more if I did it now.

you should not allow a client to try to renegotiate price after the work has been delivered

Completely agree. The "Fuck You: Pay Me" video has some good tips on contracts and making sure additional work is billed separately etc. The price should be set in stone before any work begins.

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