Can Classic Moral Stories Promote Honesty in Children? [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Can Classic Moral Stories Promote Honesty in Children? [pdf]

#31

Post by droithomme » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 4:12 AM UTC

sogen wrote: post #3

tl;dr: Stories focusing on the positive aspects: Good. --> i.e. George Washington and the Cherry Tree Stories focusing on the negative consequences: BAD. ( Pinocchio , The Boy Who Cried Wolf )

I don't doubt their measurements, but as is so common with these sorts of studies their conclusions are completely interpretive according to their own whims.

The George Washington story matches the subsequent experience of the child. The child is asked if they did the bad thing, just exactly as George Washington was asked in the story. A very young child will be able to make the connection between what is happening and the story they just heard because the exact same thing is going down.

The other stories are more abstract. They are not stories of someone doing a bad thing and then being asked if they did the bad thing.

It's a more reasonable conclusion, in my opinion, that what we are seeing is an effect of how close the story is to the experience, without having to rely on abstraction skills a very young child does not possess. And not whether the outcome was good or bad.

In general the study design is poor and more people should have seen that. There are numerous differences between these stories, hundreds of differences, not just outcome. And one of the stories being much closer to what they are testing is obviously relevant and confounding.

A better study design would be able to explore this. For example, tell the children one of the following stories:

1. George Washington does a bad thing and is asked if he did it. When he says yes, he is rewarded.

2. George Washington does a bad thing and is asked if he did it. When he says yes, he is punished.

3. George Washington does a bad thing. He is not asked if he did it, but is rewarded by fate.

4. George Washington does a bad thing. He is not asked if he did it, but is punished by fate.

5. George Washington does a good thing and is asked if he did it. When he says yes, he is rewarded.

6. George Washington does a good thing and is asked if he did it. When he says yes, he is punished.

7. George Washington does a good thing. He is not asked if he did it, but is rewarded by fate.

8. George Washington does a good thing. He is not asked if he did it, but is punished by fate.

Re: Can Classic Moral Stories Promote Honesty in Children? [pdf]

#32

Post by webwielder » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 4:18 AM UTC

thret wrote: post #29

rayiner wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a wonderful point. Star Trek, particularly TNG, has always had some very strongly moral characters. Picard, obviously, but also Sisko in DS9.

Why did you elevate Picard and Sisko morally over Kirk or Janeway? Actually all officers on Star Trek seem to be of high moral character, I can't think of one who isn't.

Both Kirk and Janeway were much less by-the-book. They had no compunction against violating the prime directive, making unscrupulous alliances, seducing young ensigns, or reading the Constitution to a planet of Nazis (or something like that) if they felt it furthered their (usually noble if misguided) goals.

Re: Can Classic Moral Stories Promote Honesty in Children? [pdf]

#33

Post by philwelch » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 4:49 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #19

pling wrote: post #17

Probably a rather geeky thing to say but Star Trek TNG promoted honesty, morality and a strong sense of ethics to me. That IMHO is no different to classic moral stories as the basic premise is the same in some episodes.

This is a wonderful point. Star Trek, particularly TNG, has always had some very strongly moral characters. Picard, obviously, but also Sisko in DS9.

Sisko makes a number of morally questionable decisions, most especially in "For the Uniform" and "In the Pale Moonlight".

Re: Can Classic Moral Stories Promote Honesty in Children? [pdf]

#34

Post by prestadige » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 5:49 AM UTC

Your child will, as ever, learn your true values. If you try to manipulate him into being honest then you are implicitly asserting that honesty is bad. Correct this by understanding that honesty is its own reward. The world is a beautiful and a dangerous place and honesty helps you to see it correctly.

Re: Can Classic Moral Stories Promote Honesty in Children? [pdf]

#35

Post by rcthompson » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 7:12 AM UTC

thret wrote: post #28

jedunnigan wrote: post #11

>During the game, children were left alone for 1 min and told not to cheat by peeking at the toy. Because of the highly tempting nature of the situation, most children were expected to cheat (e.g., Talwar & Lee, 2002). Before confronting them with the question of whether they had cheated, an experimenter read one of three moral stories or a control story to each child. It would have been interesting if they had anoth…

Why would they have expected children to cheat? My family played games of all kinds regularly from a very early age, cheating was unthinkable. There's no game without honesty.

Judging from the fact that they have a citation right after that phrase, I assume that their expectation is based on a previous study that showed exactly that.

Re: Can Classic Moral Stories Promote Honesty in Children? [pdf]

#36

Post by tomjen3 » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 8:09 AM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #5

sogen wrote: post #3

tl;dr: Stories focusing on the positive aspects: Good. --> i.e. George Washington and the Cherry Tree Stories focusing on the negative consequences: BAD. ( Pinocchio , The Boy Who Cried Wolf )

Strange. I find the boy who cried wolf to be a really good one. It's still something I think of from time to time. I doesn't stop me telling the odd lie but if/when I consider a big lie I definitely consider the consequences based on that story.

I used to agree with that interpretation until I saw the DS9 episode where Garet comments on the story - and points out that the mistake was to keep telling the same lie and a lie that is easy to very is a lie.

Re: Can Classic Moral Stories Promote Honesty in Children? [pdf]

#37

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 8:19 AM UTC

bane wrote: post #21

pling wrote: post #17

Probably a rather geeky thing to say but Star Trek TNG promoted honesty, morality and a strong sense of ethics to me. That IMHO is no different to classic moral stories as the basic premise is the same in some episodes.

What's also been interesting to me is the more recent sci-fi shows like Battlestar Galactica or Stargate:Universe that try and set up a Star Trek like moral dilemma, and you know exactly what a Star Trek TNG captain would do, and the writers will cause the Captain to take the opposite moral choice, often for good reasons. It's a bit like the TNG ethics are being used as an ethical framework to bounce modern issues of…

[deleted]

Re: Can Classic Moral Stories Promote Honesty in Children? [pdf]

#38

Post by thret » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 10:00 AM UTC

webwielder wrote: post #32

thret wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you elevate Picard and Sisko morally over Kirk or Janeway? Actually all officers on Star Trek seem to be of high moral character, I can't think of one who isn't.

Both Kirk and Janeway were much less by-the-book. They had no compunction against violating the prime directive, making unscrupulous alliances, seducing young ensigns, or reading the Constitution to a planet of Nazis (or something like that) if they felt it furthered their (usually noble if misguided) goals.

I don't want to start a Trek debate on HN :) Alliances wrt Janeway are certainly questionable, but for both where they did deviate from the book it was always as you say for noble reasons. Breaking an unjust law is not morally wrong. Snowden broke laws for noble reasons. Is he a moral character? I think so.