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Stop The JerkTech

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Re: Stop The JerkTech

#81
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentor at startup events, so I know exactly what kind of people they are. The good ones are people who just haven't thought it through. They've found some sort of demand, and they're doing the standard hack-the-system thing that the startup culture trains them to do. Once it's rolling, it's like Mencken said: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it…

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Because nearly every internet business gets it's revenue from advertising, a lot of good people jump through hoops to convince themselves that they have not made a deal with the devil. The downvotes[1] come fast when I point out this moral and cognitive dissonance, usually without any counter argument since t…

> When I talk to anyone who's livelihood doesn't rely on advertising or marketing, there is near unanimous agreement that advertising is fundamentally manipulative and dishonest. Besides the social cost of Advertising, there many other costs.

Such as? Keen to hear. :)

Also, what would you propose in lieu of the current advertising supported model that is dominant today?

Re: Stop The JerkTech

#82
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Because nearly every internet business gets it's revenue from advertising, a lot of good people jump through hoops to convince themselves that they have not made a deal with the devil. The downvotes[1] come fast when I point out this moral and cognitive dissonance, usually without any counter argument since t…

When I talk to anyone who starts raging about ethics of advertising, I often ask: are you talking about deontological or consequentialist ethics? Because that changes everything. Also, do you not understand that entities buying and selling advertising are currently in a Nash equilibrium and no amount of internet whining will change that.

So you start out dismissing my point be labeling it "raging" and "whining". In fact, by labeling it "whining", you've made it a foregone conclusion that it will be ineffectual.

Mostly consequentialist. Such should be evident from what I wrote above and in the linked comment.

Even if I were to grant your point about a Nash equilibrium (you fail to convince, but succeed to condescend), buyers and sellers of advertising are not the only players involved. You also beg the question by assuming everyone is driven purely by self-interest.

Re: Stop The JerkTech

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Assuming that rich people is richer because society decides that their time is more valuable, they can create more value in the same amount of times of some other poorer people." are you fucking kidding me? why would you assume that?

Economic theory. A rich person earns more money per hour than a poor person (by definition). Money is a representation of value (by definition). In Economics, value earned is at least proportional (if not equal) to value created. So a rich person creates more value in the same amount of time than a poor person. Their time is literally more valuable. In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In prac…

Naive theory is the worst kind. The behavioural assumptions of NC econ are naive in this dimension. Infinite rationality is easily affordable in theory. In reality, both the approximation of it is expensive, and the hack/exploitation of its failure to materialize are profound.

Re: Stop The JerkTech

#84
I dislike all of these companies, but I'd have put it all differently:

The first one, Reservation Hop, is simply indefensible because it relies on fraud. It's deceiving restaurants into thinking the person asking for a reservation is a real person. Not only does it involve lying, but it's fundamentally different from scalping a ticket because if no one "buys" the reservation, the restaurant gets nothing and was perhaps force to turn down legit customers, whereas the scalper actually paid for the ticket (though it may have been inefficiently priced, see below for more on that). It also creates no-value-added intermediary in the process. It's just a dick move all around. I do suspect that a trade group for the restaurants could get Reservation Hop cease-and-desisted, but the general solution here is for restaurants to take a credit card as part of the reservation process.

The parking ones are a bit different, in that they're taking advantage of inefficiently priced parking. Ever notice how it's really hard to find a spot on a street full of first-come-first-serve, inexpensive parking? It's for the same reason there are long lines and empty gas pumps before a storm with anti-gouging rules in effect, or in stories about the Soviet Union. You can park there for long periods of time even though you may not have a pressing need for the spot, whereas people who have such a need can't get one. Normally we manage such supply and demand issues through prices, so if you need a spot badly enough you might be willing to pay for it and one will be available because most people aren't. [1] What happens almost inevitably when you have an inefficiently distributed good is a secondary market or some sort of cultural mos, both of which are usually ethically dubious. In Boston, people "reserve" spots by putting cones or lawn chairs in "their" spots and expect you to respect it less you get your car keyed, thus compounding the inefficiency. There are places where you can pay for people to "hold" your spot, and I've had someone try to sell me theirs once. These companies are filling in exactly there, except with technology. To be clear, I think these companies are pretty crummy. But my point is that they're the almost inevitable consequence of a pretty terrible system for allocating resources. I.e. if we want to fix this, the best way to do it is to fix the underlying problem rather than shaming businesses like this. EDIT: to be clear, I'm not against shaming them if it makes you feel good; I just think it's not the solution to the problem.

Even though that description overlaps in places with the article, I like my framing a lot better. The article is coming from this place where entrepreneurs are expected to be these angels descended to Earth to fix all the "common man's" problem through innovation. Then we immolate ourselves because the community/scene turns out to be full of non-special people who are sometimes kinda shady and take advantage of bad policy and lax enforcement to make money, just like people in all other walks of life. (In an age where so much relies on technology, I don't even think it's reasonable to think of "startup tech stuff" as a scene or a space or a community at all.) Maybe it's fun to wring your hands about it and I can see a publication like TC likes to see things through that lens, but I don't think it's a very helpful way of approaching these problems if your real goal is to solve them.

[1] An important question here, given the context, is doesn't this just help the rich get parking at the expense of poor people? Well, yes, it kind of does. On the other hand, if you can't find a spot, it doesn't help poor people much, except insomuch as poor people may be willing to spend a longer time trying to park (in which case, we're making them pay for it with their time, which doesn't seem good either). But more importantly, if we want to make things easier for poor people, we should give them money so that they can do what they want with it (including parking!). That's way better than making parking artificially cheap, because a) it's a lot more flexible from the poor person's perspective and b) it distorts the allocation of resources way less.

Re: Stop The JerkTech

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Count all of the web content you've consumed and all the web services you've used in the past year. Now count all the ones you've paid for. Also, those paid-for services you mention are of such high quality (to you, not advertisers) because you pay for them. You are the customer not the product, as they say.

That isn't entirely fair. There are some websites that offer a free tier in the hopes that enough users will buy the paid tier. I suppose one could call this a form of advertising, but Dropbox giving me 2gb free does not seem to the type of manipulative advertising you are referring to (and is not a revenue source for them).

Granted. But it does't change the numbers very much. Keep counting.

Re: Stop The JerkTech

#86
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I talk to anyone who starts raging about ethics of advertising, I often ask: are you talking about deontological or consequentialist ethics? Because that changes everything. Also, do you not understand that entities buying and selling advertising are currently in a Nash equilibrium and no amount of internet whining will change that.

So you start out dismissing my point be labeling it "raging" and "whining". In fact, by labeling it "whining", you've made it a foregone conclusion that it will be ineffectual. Mostly consequentialist. Such should be evident from what I wrote above and in the linked comment. Even if I were to grant your point about a Nash equilibrium (you fail to convince, but succeed to condescend), buyers and sellers of advertising…

[deleted]

Re: Stop The JerkTech

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Assuming that rich people is richer because society decides that their time is more valuable, they can create more value in the same amount of times of some other poorer people." are you fucking kidding me? why would you assume that?

Economic theory. A rich person earns more money per hour than a poor person (by definition). Money is a representation of value (by definition). In Economics, value earned is at least proportional (if not equal) to value created. So a rich person creates more value in the same amount of time than a poor person. Their time is literally more valuable. In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In prac…

A rich person earns more money per hour than a poor person (by definition).

No, that's a person with "high hourly earned income".

Making wealth is not the only way to get rich. For most of human history it has not even been the most common. Until a few centuries ago, the main sources of wealth were mines, slaves and serfs, land, and cattle, and the only ways to acquire these rapidly were by inheritance, marriage, conquest, or confiscation. Naturally wealth had a bad reputation. - Paul Graham

Re: Stop The JerkTech

#88
How about stop the circle jerk.

They are parasitic, arguable, but so what if they are? People dislike that, so what?

What is the story here exactly? It seems to me it's just link bait with everyone agreeing they dislike these apps.

It's an article saying being rude is bad. I don't see why people think this article has value other than they get to throw in a me too.

And at the end of the day, I'd imaging most people here are also working for parasitic companies who just hide it a bit better. i.e. Advertising including SEO. This to me is more of a real story.

Re: Stop The JerkTech

#89
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Assuming that rich people is richer because society decides that their time is more valuable, they can create more value in the same amount of times of some other poorer people." are you fucking kidding me? why would you assume that?

I believe that's a reasonable assumption for this discussion (that's not my personal opinion, btw). But trying to justify that statement will start a flame war and distract from the topic, so let me try to say that sentence in another way: Parking spot is a commodity. And just like other commodity in life, everyone values it differently. What's wrong in letting people paying for what they think it's worth for? The ri…

"The rich will always have advantage in buying commodity, and that's a fundamental issue in our society, but that's an entirely separate problem to fix"

its not at all an entirely separate problem to fix. society should not be structured so that rich people are always, fundamentally advantaged in every dimension. we should not commoditize everything.

Re: Stop The JerkTech

#90

I dislike all of these companies, but I'd have put it all differently: The first one, Reservation Hop, is simply indefensible because it relies on fraud. It's deceiving restaurants into thinking the person asking for a reservation is a real person. Not only does it involve lying, but it's fundamentally different from scalping a ticket because if no one "buys" the reservation, the restaurant gets nothing and was perha…

The parking ones won't last long if cities follow Santa Monica's lead:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/smart-parking-...

edit: tl;dr the extra time gets wiped out when your car leaves the spot.

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