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Why So Few Violent Games?

ludusnovus.net

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Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The appeal is in infinite possibilities, sport and teamwork. Single player games don't appeal to me as an adult, the outcome is scripted and the characters are hollow for the most part. It's entirely passive and a film or book gets to the point quicker for me. Violent multiplayers though- Counter Strike or Battlefield- give rise to fluid, human, tense stories. Stories in the context of violence sure, but real and non…

Please describe the story of Counter Strike, because I've logged hundreds of hours on the game and have no idea what you're talking about.

As others have mentioned, it's not about the game, but specific experiences you had. I have memories of intense stand-offs when rescuing hostages, or the one time I had an __absurd__ streak of luck and managed to single-handedly wipe out the entire other team (never since repeated).

Some of my strongest gaming memories are of the first (?) level of Rogue Spear (one of the Rainbow Six games), where I was hunting terrorists in the Met. It was fifteen years ago, but I still remember how upset I felt when I saw a virtual character fall down after being shot, and I can still remember the intense despair that crushing my elation when a hostage panicked and ran in between me and the terrorist (and I shot him). I played that level so many times that I can probably still sketch the map. I remember nothing else about the game, but the experience of playing that one map stays with me.

This is a completely different kind of "story" or memory than one's going to get from a game like Borderlands.

Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#42
post #23
post #13

If you didn't get the crawford reference, you need to play Siboot[1] right now. It's middling in terms of how fun it is, but interesting to see how much it was possible to model social interaction 27 years ago. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_%26_Betrayal:_The_Legacy_...

Where can we play it? Wikipedia just describes it.

It used to be posted on his home-page (and I think the wikipedia article used to link to that?) But I couldn't find it on there any more. It's available on most abandonware sites though (use the Mac version with a mac emulator, the MS-DOS version has some important bugs in it).

[edit] The source code for it is available still on his homepage, but You'll need paschal and assemblers for MacOS to build it I imagine.

http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/source-code/index.html

Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#43
post #19

The author is sarcastic, but actually quite right. We don't have many games that actually explore violence, give it a deeper meaning or use it as a rhetorical device (like GTA V did superficially with the torture scene). There are many games with a violent shell, but it's actually about scoring points. Killing an enemy in an FPS gives me the same kind of satisfaction as solving lines in Tetris. The last time I played…

Oddly enough, one game that hit me hard with the violence in it was Pikmin. Simple and cute, you can't help but learn to love and nurture your little underlings, but as the game progressed it became tougher to overcome challenges and before long you started having to plan on sacrificing percentages of your Pikmin just so you could achieve your goal. The first Pikmin death (with a beautifully haunting wail) hit me pre…

In Kerbal Space Program, I have launched rescue mission to save stranded Kerbals that took several hours of planning and flying. Anytime an engine breaks off a lander or a ship runs out of fuel, I feel compelled to send a robotic rescue mission to bring them back home (even though they won't die when merely stranded).

I'm not sure what about the game creates that feeling, but I think the game is much better because of it. Some of my best moments in the game were during rescue missions (one time I had a lander on the Mun with no docking ports and only enough fuel for a short sub-orbital hop; I managed to rendezvous with the lander mid-hop, then EVA the kerbal into the rescue craft.)

Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#44

When I worked at Angel Studios about 15 years ago (doing projects for Nintendo and Disney), one of the many things that I liked about the company was a conscious decision by the four owners of the company to not create violent content. They were a class act. Not too far off topic: my brother and my grandson absolutely love violent games. I don't understand the appeal. What I do like are driving games and strategy gam…

Interestingly, even extremely graphically violent games on the surface can be felt as non-violent in a competitive setting. I recall this "playing to win" essay, talking about Street Fighter. (If characters punching each other to unconsciousness is not violent, I don't know what is.) In fighting games, competitive players tend to concentrate on the structure behind punches and suffering. They see a game of anticipati…

Hi, fighting game player here. You're very right about the way we see the games: Ryu's Shoryuken isn't a stylish kung-fu uppercut, it's an attack that's invincible on startup and with a strong vertical hitbox, making it useful against jumping attacks and to beat careless attacks from the opponent, but which is easily punishable if blocked.

The essay you're referring to is written by a man named David Sirlin, and he runs a website where he talks about his ideas on game design[1]. He's perhaps most known in the community for helping to bring to light the concept of "yomi," (lit. "reading"), the process of taking actions specifically to get a grasp on your opponent's thought process and be able to predict it. To him, that's the one pure essence of fighting games (though this view is not universally held).

In fact, he's already done something like you describe. He designed a card game named, appropriately enough, Yomi[2], that attempts to bring the core of a fighting game into a card game format. Much like in fighting games, attacking beats throws, throws beat blocking, and blocking beats attacks. Hitting a player allows you to attempt to combo them, but the opponent can play cards (that may be bluffs) which can break the combo.

He did something similar with chess, calling it Chess 2, though it's much less popular than Yomi.

[1] http://www.sirlin.net

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yomi_(card_game)

Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#45
The game I liked for violence was Age of Empires and Age of Nations. I use to build custom maps with obscenely large armies maintained level peace till the enemery ran out of resources and then use to starve them to death. Eventually use to nuke the enemies.

After destroying enemies I use to destroy my allies in the game.

Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#46
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please describe the story of Counter Strike, because I've logged hundreds of hours on the game and have no idea what you're talking about.

As others have mentioned, it's not about the game, but specific experiences you had. I have memories of intense stand-offs when rescuing hostages, or the one time I had an __absurd__ streak of luck and managed to single-handedly wipe out the entire other team (never since repeated). Some of my strongest gaming memories are of the first (?) level of Rogue Spear (one of the Rainbow Six games), where I was hunting terro…

With all due respect, it doesn't sound like the simulated violence had much to do with the nostalgia you're describing. Not that I don't believe that violence can't be a tool used to evoke empathy, but effective stories can certainly be devised without hyperrealistic violence.

Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#47

Heh. It's sort of odd to read reactions to this by people who are completely outside the game industry. This isn't sarcasm. This is a parody. Every line is one that game designers who advocate for games about social dynamics have heard in response. That modeling a gunshot or a sword stroke is much easier than trying to capture the nuance of a conversation. The "Gorytron" reference refers to "Erasmatron", a computer s…

"That modeling a gunshot or a sword stroke is much easier than trying to capture the nuance of a conversation."

I think that's really kind of true, though. If you look at the kinds of movies we export successfully, spectacle sells overseas a lot better than movies about conversation. Is it because mass audiences are dumb? I don't think so. Are the Chinese less sophisticated than us? No. So why is "Transformers Age of Extinction" a cash rake outside of the U.S., with 78% of its box office take coming from foreign markets, while something like "The Fault In Our Stars" only gets 19% of its money from overseas?

Because spectacle is easy, and more importantly, spectacle needs very little translation. A giant truck robot riding an even gianter dinosaur robot and wielding a giant sword speaks for itself. Movies about human interaction require a lot more translation. You need subtitles for all the text, and a good translation is difficult -- for one, film is a visual medium, and having to read subtitles distracts your visual attention more than being able to hear the dialogue and understand it. And even if you understand the words, that's not the same as understanding the context -- subtle nuances of wordplay can be lost in translation, and translation doesn't help with allusions to things that audiences may not be familiar with.

So what does that have to do with video games? Well, video games have always been rather limited in what they can convey. Early videogames especially, and since the author mentions Doom in passing, let's focus on Doom's level of technical sophistication. So much of what makes for conversation wasn't possible with Doom's level of technology. Forget anything but text -- Doom's audio was limited to a bunch of nearly-MIDI files and a handful of WAV files for sound effects. We didn't have MP3s yet, bandwidth and storage were both in short supply, and text to speech was rather eerie and easily identifiable as synthetic. You couldn't have inflection or tone to your dialogue.

At the same time, facial expression, body language -- all of those things are very difficult to convey in graphics that were 320x200 pixels with 256 colors. (They're also difficult to convey on modern high-res polygons; there's a reason we have the term uncanny valley.)

When Doom came out, I have absolutely no doubt it was easier to meaningfully convey violence against creatures from hell on Mars than it was to convey social interaction between people in the medium of video games. And in a lot of ways, I think that's still true.

Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#48
I have to imagine the arguments or excuses that the author is parodying. I guess they are excuses that there are more violent games because violent interactions are easier to simulate than non-violent interactions.

Rather than do a parody, I'd just point out that excuses about simulation are crappy because games hardly simulate anything. Outside of rigid-body physics, game logic is just a nonsense of magical rules. Why can't I blast open this door? Why do all the light switches still work after I've released several grenades in the room and decaled all the walls? It's all happily absurd.

So if it's a standard in games that stepping over a medkit can cure you of the shotgun blast you took to the face, in some ridiculous simulacrum of first-aid, then why isn't it standard in games that gifting the love interest a rare flower makes them follow you around in some sort of ridiculous simulacrum of infatuation.

It's a nice parody argument. But I'd rather have a history of how games got where they got. Maybe we can blame it all on Dungeons and Dragons. That game had HP.

Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#49
post #37
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand the appeal. What's the appeal of action movies? It's fun. Haven't you ever tried blowing something up when you were a kid?

That's begging the question. Why is it fun?

Asking people why they like what they like is a pointless exercise.

And generally, in my experience, it comes from a place of arrogance on the part of the person doing the asking, because the next phase is talking down about how the "reasons" aren't valid.

Re: Why So Few Violent Games?

#50

When I worked at Angel Studios about 15 years ago (doing projects for Nintendo and Disney), one of the many things that I liked about the company was a conscious decision by the four owners of the company to not create violent content. They were a class act. Not too far off topic: my brother and my grandson absolutely love violent games. I don't understand the appeal. What I do like are driving games and strategy gam…

Interestingly, even extremely graphically violent games on the surface can be felt as non-violent in a competitive setting. I recall this "playing to win" essay, talking about Street Fighter. (If characters punching each other to unconsciousness is not violent, I don't know what is.) In fighting games, competitive players tend to concentrate on the structure behind punches and suffering. They see a game of anticipati…

If you abstract any game you'll end up with chess or something similar. Deep down all games are about luring the other player into doing something you expect. You are left with a decision tree.

That has a lot less appeal than fast paced, cool looking ninjas kicking each other - hence why video games are an art form and not just intellectual exercise.

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