A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#41

Post by PerfectElement » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 5:01 AM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #26

_vn5r wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This study had several limitations. First, it included self-selected, very deter- mined patients. Without a control group, it is challenging to establish causality and as- sess how much of the observed changes are specifically due to the diet. Only some of the observed beneficial outcomes may have been due to the diet. This study was not pro- spectively randomized. Nevertheless, this fact does not detract from proof…

Thanks for including that. > These data convey a strong message of patients accepting empowerment to be the locus of control to arrest their disease and confirm that patients will adopt a significant lifestyle transition to plant-based nutrition to halt and regress what we believe is a largely food- borne illness. In other words, they conclude that diet can impact CAD and some people will be willing to change their d…

I don't think the effectiveness of a whole foods plant based diet is really in question here. There are enough robust studies showing that it prevents and reverses CAD (look for Dr. Dean Ornish and Dr. Collin Campbell).

Knowing that CAD is the number one killer in several countries, I am all for studies like this being published, even with the lack of formal control group, after all, the numbers are pointing in one direction. If I had heart disease, I would have liked to know about this data.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#42

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 5:04 AM UTC

jdnier wrote: post #36

driverdan wrote: post #18

While interesting this is a highly flawed study. It should be considered preliminary with more properly controlled followup studies. 1. No control group You need to have a control group that continues eating a standard healthy diet that includes animal products. The 11% who were non-adherent could have been eating unhealthy diets which contributed to their instances of CAD. Without a control it could have just been e…

Nearly 100% of participants who changed their diet had no additional cardiac events; some even had measurable disease reversal. These were all sick people. The hard question is "What is a healthy diet that includes animal products?" This study doesn't address that interesting question but does demonstrate that if you eat a particular healthy diet that happens to not include any animal products, you won't die from hea…

[deleted]

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#43

Post by melling » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 5:04 AM UTC

Didn't Bill Clinton switch to a vegan diet to "manage" his heart disease? Think I saw it discussed on CNN. Here's a NYT article that I found on it:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/bill-clintons-vegan...

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#44

Post by marincounty » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 5:18 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #35

[deleted]

Yea, it's scary. I took an introductory Psychology course at COM, by a teacher who did landscaping during the summer breaks. He spent a huge amount of time on the protocols of a good scientific study, and the Placebo Effect. I used to assume most published studies followed the basic requirements he taught us; I and the FDA have been duped--conned--and lied too! It's pathetic, and I don't see anyone reprimanding these entities. I'm not upset about this study, but I'm beyond disappointed with Drug companies!

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#45

Post by PerfectElement » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 5:26 AM UTC

lingben wrote: post #39

[deleted] wrote: post #35

[deleted]

There are 2 things which influence CAD: omega 6 intake and stress. Arterial plaque is formed not as a result of a high fat diet (even animal fat) but as a result of inflammation which kickstarts the plaque building process. The myth that high cholesterol or high fat is the culprit of CAD is difficult to kill, even when study after study shows no correlation whatsoever between them and CAD. The correlation though does…

>>The myth that high cholesterol or high fat is the culprit of CAD is difficult to kill, even when study after study shows no correlation whatsoever between them and CAD.

It's hard to kill because it's not a myth. Despite of all the blogs and books the paleo-opportunists are selling you, the best science available today shows a very strong correlation between cholesterol and CAD. Even the all mighty cattle industry will have a hard time convincing real scientists that the lipid hypothesis is a conspiracy theory.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#46

Post by vixin » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 6:21 AM UTC

PerfectElement wrote: post #45

lingben wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 2 things which influence CAD: omega 6 intake and stress. Arterial plaque is formed not as a result of a high fat diet (even animal fat) but as a result of inflammation which kickstarts the plaque building process. The myth that high cholesterol or high fat is the culprit of CAD is difficult to kill, even when study after study shows no correlation whatsoever between them and CAD. The correlation though does…

>>The myth that high cholesterol or high fat is the culprit of CAD is difficult to kill, even when study after study shows no correlation whatsoever between them and CAD. It's hard to kill because it's not a myth. Despite of all the blogs and books the paleo-opportunists are selling you, the best science available today shows a very strong correlation between cholesterol and CAD. Even the all mighty cattle industry w…

As I am sure you're aware, correlation is not causation. But you didn't say it. Plenty of studies suggest that it's how the cholesterol is carried in the blood that matters and this isn't just a matter of HDL and LDL; the type of LDL matters too as do triglycerides. Another important factor is inflammation i.e., high c-reactive protein levels need checking out. And of course other factors may be significant as well.

To put it politely, pertinent questions remain regarding the data which Ancel Keys picked to support his high fat = heart disease hypothesis.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#47

Post by collyw » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 8:27 AM UTC

JDDunn9 wrote: post #34

driverdan wrote: post #18

While interesting this is a highly flawed study. It should be considered preliminary with more properly controlled followup studies. 1. No control group You need to have a control group that continues eating a standard healthy diet that includes animal products. The 11% who were non-adherent could have been eating unhealthy diets which contributed to their instances of CAD. Without a control it could have just been e…

Control and double blind studies are more important when the placebo effect and subjective outcomes are at play. Not necessary here. Everyone that follows a different diet would like to complain about that. You should have compared it to the paleo diet, or low-carb diet, or whatever. Show studies that those diets have similar effects and then they merit comparison. Self reporting is an issue, but this is not the only…

My friend, (a scientist) wants to develop a pill that "triggers" the placebo effect (lets face it, its as effective as many drugs). Could you test that?

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#48

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 9:32 AM UTC

So they cut sugar and they cut meat and dairy, and they blamed the improvements on cutting meat and dairy, or am I misreading this?

It seems like as if I wanted to prove that a television-free lifestyle improved health outcomes, so I studied a group that stopped watching television (and taking heroin.) I keep reading "plant-based" as characterizing the diet, including in the abstract, when the sugar they cut out was almost certainly plant-based too.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#49

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 9:36 AM UTC

The_Pherocity wrote: post #10

suprgeek wrote: post #8

I suspect that rather than what they ate, what they did not eat played a major role.... " Patients were also asked to avoid sugary foods (sucrose, fructose, and drinks containing them, refined carbohydrates, fruit juices, syrups, and molasses). Subsequently, we also excluded caffeine and fructose."

Considering it states exactly that in the article in two places, I's say it's a safe assumption.

That quote is from the article, yes. But they repeatedly summarize the diet as "plant-based", rather than sugar-free and plant-based. What if the fact that they cut meat had absolutely no effect or even a negative one? Would we be able to tell from this?

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#50

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 9:46 AM UTC

PerfectElement wrote: post #45

lingben wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 2 things which influence CAD: omega 6 intake and stress. Arterial plaque is formed not as a result of a high fat diet (even animal fat) but as a result of inflammation which kickstarts the plaque building process. The myth that high cholesterol or high fat is the culprit of CAD is difficult to kill, even when study after study shows no correlation whatsoever between them and CAD. The correlation though does…

>>The myth that high cholesterol or high fat is the culprit of CAD is difficult to kill, even when study after study shows no correlation whatsoever between them and CAD. It's hard to kill because it's not a myth. Despite of all the blogs and books the paleo-opportunists are selling you, the best science available today shows a very strong correlation between cholesterol and CAD. Even the all mighty cattle industry w…

>the best science available today shows a very strong correlation between cholesterol and CAD.

True, but can you show me a study that shows that reduction or increase in cholesterol levels is correlated with improvement or escalation of CAD?

There's a correlation between having a penis and baldness, but it doesn't necessarily follow that castrating yourself will cause your hair to grow back.