Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

jfponline.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 65 posts

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#31

Post by marincounty »

driverdan wrote: post #18

While interesting this is a highly flawed study. It should be considered preliminary with more properly controlled followup studies. 1. No control group You need to have a control group that continues eating a standard healthy diet that includes animal products. The 11% who were non-adherent could have been eating unhealthy diets which contributed to their instances of CAD. Without a control it could have just been e…

You are right on all three points!

The most interesting item in the article, was this, "We referenced the plummeting death rates from strokes and heart attacks in Norway during World War II when the German occupying forces confiscated their livestock, limiting Norwegians to plant-based nutrition.15"

I didn't know about this. This might be the only reliable evidence of the efficacy of plant based diets we have so far? I don't know the mindset of Norwegians back then concerning health, so I don't think the Placebo Effect played much of a role in final statistics, and they must have been under a lot of stress. I couldn't find the footnote 15, but will look harder.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#33

Post by brettp »

1. Awful summary

0.6% recurrent event rate does not mean it was 99.4% effective. You need to know what the recurrent event rate would have been if everything else was the same and they hadn't followed the diet. Hint: if the normal recurrent event rate is 0.3% then they are worse off, not better (insert test of statistical significance here).

If the event you are testing for (recurrent CVA) is rare, then a large enough sample and proper statistical significance tests are even more important.

2. No control group

"Didn't follow the diet" is not a control group. They have, post-hoc, selected the subgroup consisting of "people unlikely to follow a lifestyle intervention". That group might also been the most likely to continue smoking, not take their medication, do no exercise, be too unwell to follow a rigorous diet, etc etc.

3. Subgroup analysis

Drawing a circle around a subgroup after your study and making inferences from them is an excellent way to get bogus results. (Classic example: Wimbledon winner prediction system. Email 2000 people at random with each player and ask them to bet $1 on that player. After you know the winner, get the subgroup of people who won, and ask them how accurate they think your winner prediction system is.)

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#34

Post by JDDunn9 »

driverdan wrote: post #18

While interesting this is a highly flawed study. It should be considered preliminary with more properly controlled followup studies. 1. No control group You need to have a control group that continues eating a standard healthy diet that includes animal products. The 11% who were non-adherent could have been eating unhealthy diets which contributed to their instances of CAD. Without a control it could have just been e…

Control and double blind studies are more important when the placebo effect and subjective outcomes are at play. Not necessary here. Everyone that follows a different diet would like to complain about that. You should have compared it to the paleo diet, or low-carb diet, or whatever. Show studies that those diets have similar effects and then they merit comparison.

Self reporting is an issue, but this is not the only type of study on the issue. It has been supported by international studies, animal testing, and countless studies about the health benefits of more fruits/vegetables and less meat.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#36

Post by jdnier »

driverdan wrote: post #18

While interesting this is a highly flawed study. It should be considered preliminary with more properly controlled followup studies. 1. No control group You need to have a control group that continues eating a standard healthy diet that includes animal products. The 11% who were non-adherent could have been eating unhealthy diets which contributed to their instances of CAD. Without a control it could have just been e…

Nearly 100% of participants who changed their diet had no additional cardiac events; some even had measurable disease reversal. These were all sick people. The hard question is "What is a healthy diet that includes animal products?" This study doesn't address that interesting question but does demonstrate that if you eat a particular healthy diet that happens to not include any animal products, you won't die from heart disease. That's a profound result for the participants, with profound public health implications.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#37

Post by pm »

marincounty wrote: post #31
driverdan wrote: post #18

While interesting this is a highly flawed study. It should be considered preliminary with more properly controlled followup studies. 1. No control group You need to have a control group that continues eating a standard healthy diet that includes animal products. The 11% who were non-adherent could have been eating unhealthy diets which contributed to their instances of CAD. Without a control it could have just been e…

You are right on all three points! The most interesting item in the article, was this, "We referenced the plummeting death rates from strokes and heart attacks in Norway during World War II when the German occupying forces confiscated their livestock, limiting Norwegians to plant-based nutrition.15" I didn't know about this. This might be the only reliable evidence of the efficacy of plant based diets we have so far?…

I don't remember the source, but I read an article a couple of years ago that linked that statistic of plummeting death rates in Norway during WW2 to high consumption of cod liver oil, which apparently was readily available. Take that as you will.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#38

Post by marincounty »

cottonseed wrote: post #25

This was some years ago now, but I saw the PI of the Nurses's Health Study [0] (I don't remember if it was Speizer or Willett; probably Willet) give a talk at Harvard. This was just after I read The China Study [1] -- a book recommended by Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease, which was given to participants of this study. The recommendations of the NHS [2] seem to disagree with the more extreme diets of TCS and this st…

I'm surprised they excluded nuts, and avacados? I guess they wanted a diet of zero fats? When I was younger I had and extreme fear of my clogging up my arteries. I ate a normal diet, but no processed food, and no sugar.(I was so young I didn't know about fructose, etc.). I just really vigilant about sugar. I got my cholesterol down to 120. Yes, it's antidotal, but my doctor was surprised. I wish I wish I stayed on that diet! One other antidotal story. My best friend smoked three packs of cigarettes a day(12 to 70 years) and at least a pot of coffee. Everyone told him his arteries are probably partially occluded. Well he went in for extensive tests, and he had no plaque build up. We were all surprised. I think what saved him is he only ate one meal a day? He died at 71 because of COPD, but he was functional up to 70. I pass this along to the Smokers who can't stop. Everyday, people told him he would get cancer, or heart disease--he got neither. I'm not condoning smoking, but in think calorie restriction might save your life if you just won't/can't quit? When he finally quit at 70, he said I was much easier than he thought, and comparing it to quitting Heroin was ridiculous. And I know--it's antidotal, and his experience does not come close to a double blind study.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#39

Post by lingben »

[deleted] wrote: post #35

[deleted]

There are 2 things which influence CAD: omega 6 intake and stress.

Arterial plaque is formed not as a result of a high fat diet (even animal fat) but as a result of inflammation which kickstarts the plaque building process.

The myth that high cholesterol or high fat is the culprit of CAD is difficult to kill, even when study after study shows no correlation whatsoever between them and CAD.

The correlation though does exist between high stress combined with poor diet: high omega 6, processed foods, high sugar, high starch/carb intake coupled with stress which is the precursor to inflammation.

Inflammation is in fact the #1 cause of disease in humans. But like cancer, it is a slipper sonofabitch to nail down.

Re: A Way to Reverse Coronary Artery Disease? [pdf]

#40

Post by jdnier »

dang wrote: post #30
fernly wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for that!

Seconded. We've changed the url to that from http://www.jfponline.com/articles/editor-s-pick/article/a-wa... . We've also reverted the title. The submitted title ("A 99.4% effective way to reverse Coronary Artery Disease (CAD).") seemed pretty editorialized.

Mea culpa. That was the original title I submitted. When no one had responded for a good while, I inserted the "99.4% effective" part. I should have at least wrapped it [in brackets]. I hadn't intended to drop the question mark.
Post reply on HN