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Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

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Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#41

Post by Paul_S »

Maakuth wrote: post #25

I just finished reading David Kushner's Masters of Doom, which tells the story of DOOM development, as well as the id software story around it. It was well-written and thoroughly researched story, should be a good read for many in here.

Fair warning though, if you don't want to see the dark side of your heroes maybe skip it. Because the book is very thourough and they did some morally questionable things. Repeatedly. I was horrified. I thought maybe some of it is not true but then no one sued for defamy.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#42

Post by lotharbot »

moultano wrote: post #23
lotharbot wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “maneuverability as defense” the Descent series is all about this, even in multiplayer. Here's a video of two of the best players in the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8eCULTB3IQ (with audio commentary from some of the other best players, starting at around 7%.)

I loved the movement in that game. I wish there was something modern like it.

The video posted is less than a year old. And quite a few game enhancements have been added since then.

http://descentchampions.org/new_player.php

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#43

Post by Jehar »

endgame wrote: post #4
Mithaldu wrote: post #3

> Doom is about “maneuverability as defense” > ... > There’s nothing quite like it today. There's one game i'm aware of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painkiller_(video_game) By default it also moves fairly slowly, but the player is strongly encouraged and almost forced to use bunny-hopping to gain extreme agility and speed. Most youtube LPs showcase this quite well. "Asylum" and "Snowy Bridge" are imo the highpoint l…

The Serious Sam games fit the DooM tradition, as well.

There is a critical gap between the sensibilities of Doom/Quake/Duke and Painkiller/Serious Sam: level flow. The latter camp is in varying degrees a series of rooms you get locked into as enemies spawn in waves. The former involves navigating a highly varied environment as you attract the attention of pre-existing enemies.

Sure, on the avatar scale, they play at a similar level. The environments are what really set the earlier generation apart, and in that respect very little approaches that sort of design.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#44

Post by ripter »

Paul_S wrote: post #41
Maakuth wrote: post #25

I just finished reading David Kushner's Masters of Doom, which tells the story of DOOM development, as well as the id software story around it. It was well-written and thoroughly researched story, should be a good read for many in here.

Fair warning though, if you don't want to see the dark side of your heroes maybe skip it. Because the book is very thourough and they did some morally questionable things. Repeatedly. I was horrified. I thought maybe some of it is not true but then no one sued for defamy.

I don't remember anything horrifying in it. It definitely shows that they are human with flaws, just like everyone else.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#45

Post by Maakuth »

ripter wrote: post #44
Paul_S wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair warning though, if you don't want to see the dark side of your heroes maybe skip it. Because the book is very thourough and they did some morally questionable things. Repeatedly. I was horrified. I thought maybe some of it is not true but then no one sued for defamy.

I don't remember anything horrifying in it. It definitely shows that they are human with flaws, just like everyone else.

Well, there was a definite rocker component to their actions, something possibly not compatible with the idea of programming idol. At least the number of times breaking keyboards was mentioned was quite high ;).

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#46

Post by anon4 »

egypturnash wrote: post #35
anon4 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's Dark Souls 2. Dodging in DaS1 is less I AM FUCKING INVINCIBLE and more I AM INVINCIBLE for a very short amount of time and oh please please let me be out of range by the time my limited invincibility frames run out , plus your dodge is shorter and you can wear a lot less stuff before your rolls get slow. The only way to get DaS2-like dodging in DaS1 is with the dark wood grain ring. On the other hand, you can…

Actually I've only one I've been playing is DS1. As an armor-avoidant high dex thief type because that's generally my play style - see my love of being a tiny spaceship dodging giant bullets. Non-boss combat consists mostly of me rolling around like crazy until I can backstab. Also mouse and keyboard isn't any kind of option because I do 90% of my gaming on a console.

And that's somehow not super annoying and unreliable? What about titanite demons or bonewheels or mobs ganging on you? What about those tiny tiny ledges in Sen's? What about the archers in Anor Londo? What about the spiders and the mosquitoes and those toxic-spitting things in Blighttown? What about the demonic dogs? What about tiny spaces? Capra Demon?

Er.. I'm not expecting an answer to all of those, but I am curious how you pull off the playstyle in general. Do you mostly use ranged attacks?

I'm not saying it's impossible. Heck, there's speedruns where you can see people just rushing past every enemy and then stabbing the boss in the butt (i.e. the one true strategy for every boss in DaS) with some minmaxed weapon.

I guess I'm just noting it won't be fun for me to play that way at all. Well both not fun and nearly impossible.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#47

Post by lobotryas »

moultano wrote: post #23
lotharbot wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “maneuverability as defense” the Descent series is all about this, even in multiplayer. Here's a video of two of the best players in the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8eCULTB3IQ (with audio commentary from some of the other best players, starting at around 7%.)

I loved the movement in that game. I wish there was something modern like it.

What could "modernity" (by which, I assume, you mean modern 3D graphics) give to Descent that would make it a better game?

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#48

Post by lobotryas »

Maakuth wrote: post #45
ripter wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't remember anything horrifying in it. It definitely shows that they are human with flaws, just like everyone else.

Well, there was a definite rocker component to their actions, something possibly not compatible with the idea of programming idol. At least the number of times breaking keyboards was mentioned was quite high ;).

> compatible with the idea of programming idol

I think I missed the meeting that established the criteria for a "programming idol" :P

The guys back in the old id were rockstars - plain and simple. They were trailblazing an entire new industry and setting a lot of firsts. Now that the gaming industry is more "mature", the major players are more relaxed, trying to show their artistic side, and no one's smashing keyboards or putting their coworker's bloody heads on sticks as easter eggs[0].

[0] - http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Romero's_head

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#49

Post by lotharbot »

lobotryas wrote: post #47
moultano wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved the movement in that game. I wish there was something modern like it.

What could "modernity" (by which, I assume, you mean modern 3D graphics) give to Descent that would make it a better game?

Many people are under the impression that Descent is no longer playable. I was under that impression until a year ago -- it had quit working when I switched to Windows XP.

Thankfully, due to the hard work of several people, Descent runs beautifully on modern hardware.

Come play with us. http://descentchampions.org/new_player.php (current version: retro 1.3)

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#50

Post by egypturnash »

anon4 wrote: post #46
egypturnash wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I've only one I've been playing is DS1. As an armor-avoidant high dex thief type because that's generally my play style - see my love of being a tiny spaceship dodging giant bullets. Non-boss combat consists mostly of me rolling around like crazy until I can backstab. Also mouse and keyboard isn't any kind of option because I do 90% of my gaming on a console.

And that's somehow not super annoying and unreliable? What about titanite demons or bonewheels or mobs ganging on you? What about those tiny tiny ledges in Sen's? What about the archers in Anor Londo? What about the spiders and the mosquitoes and those toxic-spitting things in Blighttown? What about the demonic dogs? What about tiny spaces? Capra Demon? Er.. I'm not expecting an answer to all of those, but I am curio…

Ranged attacks are a definite part of it! I love sneaking around and sniping and am generally peeved that it refuses to let me do that to bosses. I was ECSTATIC when I finally found the dude in the undead burg who sold me a bow. Blighttown bugs, I deal with by a combo of shield and a targeted magic missile; I diversified into a few experimental spells and liked that.

I also haven't played in a while; I got to a point where I couldn't make serious progress in any of the avenues currently open to me, and then the keeper of the initial bonfire got killed, and I accidentally used what the internet tells me is the only item that could bring her - and the flame - back. I really didn't want to continue and I also really didn't feel like starting fresh.

Also use the environment! Pull gangs of mobs into a place where there's room to pick them off one by one, or just circle around and lose them. Aggro a mob, vanish around a corner, and beat heck out of it as it rounds the corner and tries to figure out where you are. Hell, I cleaned out ALL the dragons in the dragon valley by cheerfully abusing having an arrow range longer than their aggro distance...

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