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Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

ctvnews.ca

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Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#91

Post by gnerd »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #35
mhurron wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't want to discourage people from working altogether. 20k is basically poverty, you are not going to remove any desires at that level. > I think the equivalent of a part-time job at minimum wage makes the most sense. The idea is to make sure that when all else fails, you can still cover the necessities of life, things like eating and a place to sleep. Part-time minimum wage doesn't come close to that.

20k CAD ~= 19k USD ~= 11k GBP ~= 14 EUR If this was per adult in the UK then I'd be getting a substantial income boost over what I'm earning at present.

I thought minimum wage was around £12k per year. Are you studying and/or only working part time?

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#92

Post by DanBC »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #35
mhurron wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't want to discourage people from working altogether. 20k is basically poverty, you are not going to remove any desires at that level. > I think the equivalent of a part-time job at minimum wage makes the most sense. The idea is to make sure that when all else fails, you can still cover the necessities of life, things like eating and a place to sleep. Part-time minimum wage doesn't come close to that.

20k CAD ~= 19k USD ~= 11k GBP ~= 14 EUR If this was per adult in the UK then I'd be getting a substantial income boost over what I'm earning at present.

These are the UK minimum wage rates: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

    21 and over:    £6.31
    18 to 20:       £5.03
    Under 18:       £3.72
    Apprentice*:    £2.68
* This rate is for apprentices aged 16 to 18 and those aged 19 or over who are in their first year. All other apprentices are entitled to the National Minimum Wage for their age.

    6.31 * 40 * 52 = £13,124.80 per year  - for over 20s.
    5.03 * 40 * 52 = £10,462.40 per year  - for 18 to 20 year olds.
    3.72 * 40 * 52 =  £7,737.60 per year  - for under 18 year olds.
I have no idea when tax credits or income support or housing benefit kick in. But if you're getting less than this you should probably speak to an advisor somewhere to make sure you're getting everything that you're entitled to.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#93

Post by grecy »

gnerd wrote: post #90
grecy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my other comment, Australia already has it.

> See my other comment, Australia already has it. No, your other comment just mentioned the dole, which is NOT the same thing at all. Other countries have the dole, in fact, every country listed above in the comment that states they don't have guaranteed basic income, all have wide spread social protections including welfare (and often, quite a bit more wide spread than Australia, whether you see that as a good or a…

As I said, for all intents and purposes, the Australian Dole is the same thing as "unconditional basic income".

In what way is it not?

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#94

Post by grecy »

rjtavares wrote: post #79
grecy wrote: post #69

Australia already has basically this. It's called 'welfare', but anyone that doesn't have a job gets a touch over $1000AUD/mo (so just over $12kUSD/year) for life [1]. It doesn't matter if you've never had a job, or have, or whatever. They will encourage you to get a job, and you might have to work a little bit to get that money, but you'll get it. If you've got a partner, or dependent(s), you'll get more. Likely if…

You are saying that the benefic is reserved to those that don't have a job. That is not an unconditional income.

Well, it's only cancelled completely if you earn too much money.

So let's say you earn $5k/year, you'll get the dole to top you up to $12k/year.

So you get a guaranteed income.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#95

Post by grecy »

gnerd wrote: post #88
grecy wrote: post #69

Australia already has basically this. It's called 'welfare', but anyone that doesn't have a job gets a touch over $1000AUD/mo (so just over $12kUSD/year) for life [1]. It doesn't matter if you've never had a job, or have, or whatever. They will encourage you to get a job, and you might have to work a little bit to get that money, but you'll get it. If you've got a partner, or dependent(s), you'll get more. Likely if…

Lots of countries have that and I don't think Australia implemented any of those measures first. I think what is being discussed here is guaranteed unconditional income, not the dole.

> I think what is being discussed here is guaranteed unconditional income, not the dole.

For all intents and purposes, there is no difference.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#96

Post by gnerd »

grecy wrote: post #93
gnerd wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See my other comment, Australia already has it. No, your other comment just mentioned the dole, which is NOT the same thing at all. Other countries have the dole, in fact, every country listed above in the comment that states they don't have guaranteed basic income, all have wide spread social protections including welfare (and often, quite a bit more wide spread than Australia, whether you see that as a good or a…

As I said, for all intents and purposes, the Australian Dole is the same thing as "unconditional basic income". In what way is it not?

In the unconditional part? Some implementations might have a mean test for who gets what (so a lot like welfare in Anglo and/or European countries) but there is an unconditional part that means in the UK, an ASBO isn't going to be used as a custom law against people needing help or in the US, instead of giving rules about what people can or can't buy with food stamps. For me, that is the interesting part. That is the game changer.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#97

Post by pbhjpbhj »

DanBC wrote: post #92
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20k CAD ~= 19k USD ~= 11k GBP ~= 14 EUR If this was per adult in the UK then I'd be getting a substantial income boost over what I'm earning at present.

These are the UK minimum wage rates: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates 21 and over: £6.31 18 to 20: £5.03 Under 18: £3.72 Apprentice*: £2.68 * This rate is for apprentices aged 16 to 18 and those aged 19 or over who are in their first year. All other apprentices are entitled to the National Minimum Wage for their age. 6.31 * 40 * 52 = £13,124.80 per year - for over 20s. 5.03 * 40 * 52 = £10,462.40 per ye…

Lol, yes, doesn't apply to directors ... it's partly by choice, in that we've chosen a lifestyle that prefers family time over income. My point was more to indicate that it's quite possible to live comfortably on these sorts of incomes (we have a mortgage and run a car, have internet and a mobile phone contract, go out on trips, have holidays [not abroad], can afford occasional takeaways and meals out too, we're not destitute).

Thanks for caring enough to give that information though.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#98

Post by gnerd »

grecy wrote: post #95
gnerd wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of countries have that and I don't think Australia implemented any of those measures first. I think what is being discussed here is guaranteed unconditional income, not the dole.

> I think what is being discussed here is guaranteed unconditional income, not the dole. For all intents and purposes, there is no difference.

Just because you say welfare is the same as an unconditional basic income system, doesn't mean it is. Did it ever occur to you this movement started in some of the safest welfare based nation states on earth?

The difference is this. It isn't completely different, just different in this one way, UNCONDITIONAL. Your dole is anything but. Unconditional income gives options that the dole does not. It gives extra safety the dole does not.

Here[1] are a couple reasons people are supporting these movements from an Anglo perspective, I assume you have more or less the same type of welfare and obviously we have shared culture, so perhaps some of these apply to Australia and how this differs from what we have now.

[1] http://basicincome.org.uk/reasons-support-basic-income/

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#99

Post by grecy »

gnerd wrote: post #96
grecy wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, for all intents and purposes, the Australian Dole is the same thing as "unconditional basic income". In what way is it not?

In the unconditional part? Some implementations might have a mean test for who gets what (so a lot like welfare in Anglo and/or European countries) but there is an unconditional part that means in the UK, an ASBO isn't going to be used as a custom law against people needing help or in the US, instead of giving rules about what people can or can't buy with food stamps. For me, that is the interesting part. That is the…

If you don't earn enough money, it is unconditional. So it's a guaranteed basic income.

The money goes into your bank account, you can spend it on beer and smokes if you want to.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#100

Post by dragonwriter »

grecy wrote: post #93
gnerd wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See my other comment, Australia already has it. No, your other comment just mentioned the dole, which is NOT the same thing at all. Other countries have the dole, in fact, every country listed above in the comment that states they don't have guaranteed basic income, all have wide spread social protections including welfare (and often, quite a bit more wide spread than Australia, whether you see that as a good or a…

As I said, for all intents and purposes, the Australian Dole is the same thing as "unconditional basic income". In what way is it not?

Its not because it is conditional -- both means-tested and conditioned on meeting specific other participation requirements (which are, apparently, both age-dependent and in many cases time-limited after which the participation requirements change.)

Its a pretty standard example of the kinds of conditional welfare programs in opposition to which UBI is offered.

UBI is neither: 1) means-tested: because this creates perverse incentives against work (reduces the marginal value of outside income) and increases administrative costs (because you need to take information on means, verify it, and determine benefits based on it, all of which changes over time.), nor 2) conditioned on participation requirements (for much the same administrative reasons as apply to means-testing).

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