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Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

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Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#71

Post by rdtsc »

kiba wrote: post #36
rdtsc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice to help India's economy, or China or Russia. Unfortunately, US is not in the charitable business of helping developing economies.

You did not clearly understood the implication of "trade" part. If trade is central to the wealth of society, then more trading with other economies of the world will lead to increased wealth in the US. In fact, we have the largest free trade zone right here in the US. Goods and services in the US, for the most part, move freely.

Not necessarily, it depends who controls the trade. There is rarely such a thing as "free trade" or "free market" -- it is a pipe dream. Trade is mostly about controls, tariffs and subsidies. Usually the powerful side control the trade.

> largest free trade zone right here in the US.

That is true, but I thought we are talking about internation trade.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#72

Post by rdtsc »

TriinT wrote: post #45
old-gregg wrote: post #21

More programmers to free the economy? Come on... To REALLY free the economy we need a million of doctors from France, India, UK and Cuba competing here, locally, against our home grown millionaire surgeons. The #1 reason companies are outsourcing and people are leaving is this enormous burden of medical racketeering. Come on, the world is so much larger than the information technology sector and most problems that ca…

After the collapse of the USSR, lots of medical doctors and other specialized workers found themselves without a job. Today in Western Europe you can find construction workers who were doctors in the Ukraine SSR or Moldova in the 1980s, These people are a huge source of qualified work, but to the best of my knowledge only one country (Portugal) has shown any interest in re-training them as doctors to meet the severe…

That is very sad. I remember growing up in USSR, they had very good doctors. They didn't have carpeted hospitals, TVs in every hospital room, or fancy technology but doctors were good.

I remember when I was 11 I broke my front teeth on a bycicle. We went to the dentist. He sat me in the chair and said "Well, cosmonaut, let's see what we can do", and he rebuilt my teeth in 2 days. All he got in return from my mom and I were flowers and a thank you. There was no insurance, no co-pays, none of that bullshit. And I still have the same teeth he rebuilt now 20 years later. I heard that doctor moved to live in Canada...

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#73

Post by fortes »

TriinT wrote: post #53
fortes wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Little Portugal can't take on the huge surplus of doctors from Eastern Europe -- many still end up construction workers as well (although the salaries compared to back home end up being worth it). Definitely a shame we can't get them to the US. It is insane that we have roughly the same number of doctors as we did 30 years ago, despite increases in population and average age.

I don't know much about Portugal, but I know it's a small country. I didn't claim that Portugal can take on the huge surplus of doctors from Eastern Europe, but they seem to be taking steps in the right direction, just like they did on drug decriminalization. Other countries could and should follow Portugal's steps. Not all of healthcare consists of curing cancer and performing open heart surgery. A lot of medical pr…

Nurse practitioners have a been a stopgap, providing basic care. Doctor's lobbies have been fighting against those in various states too though, sadly. They're quite powerful.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#74

Post by TriinT »

ido wrote: post #70
TriinT wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the collapse of the USSR, lots of medical doctors and other specialized workers found themselves without a job. Today in Western Europe you can find construction workers who were doctors in the Ukraine SSR or Moldova in the 1980s, These people are a huge source of qualified work, but to the best of my knowledge only one country (Portugal) has shown any interest in re-training them as doctors to meet the severe…

> to the best of my knowledge only one country (Portugal) has shown any interest in re-training them as doctors to meet the severe lack of qualified medical personnel. A lot of doctors in Israel are immigrants from former Soviet Republics.

That does not surprise me, given that many Russians and Ukrainians moved to Israel after the fall of the USSR. But did those doctors start their lives in Israel as construction workers? Or did they start practicing Medicine right away?

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#75

Post by netsp »

gaius wrote: post #67
netsp wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where would you suggest digging to uncover the motive of illiterate bureaucrats from 2500 years ago? I imagine it should be easy compared to uncovering the motives of living politicians in information societies.

On a slightly unrelated note, the way to win in Afghanistan is to plumb every Afghan home with hot running water.

Are you being ironic? It's fairly amusing hearing (usually Americans) revive some colonialist axiom or piece of logic as if it is new & brilliant.

The relationship between wealth & compliance is complex.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#76

Post by abalashov »

rdtsc wrote: post #72
TriinT wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the collapse of the USSR, lots of medical doctors and other specialized workers found themselves without a job. Today in Western Europe you can find construction workers who were doctors in the Ukraine SSR or Moldova in the 1980s, These people are a huge source of qualified work, but to the best of my knowledge only one country (Portugal) has shown any interest in re-training them as doctors to meet the severe…

That is very sad. I remember growing up in USSR, they had very good doctors. They didn't have carpeted hospitals, TVs in every hospital room, or fancy technology but doctors were good. I remember when I was 11 I broke my front teeth on a bycicle. We went to the dentist. He sat me in the chair and said "Well, cosmonaut, let's see what we can do", and he rebuilt my teeth in 2 days. All he got in return from my mom and…

Yeah, I can second that, having been born and spent part of my childhood in the USSR.

The medicine was neither on the forefront of high technology nor equally distributed nor ideal, but the preventive tactics and the highly rigourous, fundamentals-oriented education of the doctors more than made up for it.

It's the same idea as Eastern Bloc polytechnic institutes; why do you think 15 of the 16 bank / capital crime hackers wanted by the FBI are ex-Soviet? It's certainly not because they had access to the latest and greatest Western commercial gear at any point in their education or experience. It turns out that it doesn't matter; the focus was on strong mathematics, computational theory and machine processing. They understand what a buffer overflow is and how to effect one easier, better and faster than their more empirically trained counterparts.

We have a family doctor in his 80s now who still practices medicine in what's left of the state system in Russia. After my parents get frustrated with yet another round with pointless paper-shuffling bureaucrats practising defensive medicine, with their army of office assistants, nurses, medical billing consultants and transcriptionists, they unfailingly call him for good advice - and it works.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#77

Post by ido »

TriinT wrote: post #74
ido wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to the best of my knowledge only one country (Portugal) has shown any interest in re-training them as doctors to meet the severe lack of qualified medical personnel. A lot of doctors in Israel are immigrants from former Soviet Republics.

That does not surprise me, given that many Russians and Ukrainians moved to Israel after the fall of the USSR. But did those doctors start their lives in Israel as construction workers? Or did they start practicing Medicine right away?

No, they had to pass some sort of exam in order to be able to practice in Israel (and also learn the language of course).

But a few years hence, the result is that a lot of Israeli doctors are former Soviet citizens.

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