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Why I Left the .NET Framework

blog.jonathanoliver.com

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Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#71

Post by MichaelGG »

sebcat wrote: post #60
com2kid wrote: post #4

Some really good criticisms, but I do wonder how long ago this developer left .NET. .NET is now heavily async based. WPF may have started it years ago, but async has been a keyword in the language for quite awhile! (I haven't used a proper lock in ages. Event queues are where it is at! Or pick your favorite paradigm, heck the framework comes with thread pools built in that it'll juggle for you!) In regards to .csproj…

I'm from a Linux/FreeBSD background. I'm currently doing work on a Windows platform. > Oh and VS support for git has been around for awhile. :) TFS also has really good git support, it has been improving with every version and it is now at a really good place. Git in visual studio does not work well. I'm using the built-in stuff in VS2013. If you want to do anything except the standard stuff (add, commit, pull, push…

Perhaps you know less about the build system than you think. SLN is NOT XML, it's some strange line-based format, that essentially lists projects. From there the whateverproj files are XML and valid MSBuild files.

Git works fine in VS. Use Git Extensions.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#72

Post by MichaelGG »

shams93 wrote: post #5

The problem is that while c# is useful for large programs when it comes to doing small stuff like validating and connecting data sources Node or Python are superior tools, but the engineer is shackled, management wants to see every tool written in c# even if c# is ill suited for the task and its possible to use the standard .Net build tools (Visual Studio) to build and test Node scripts for Windows servers. When I wa…

Use C#'s dynamic typing to avoid "building out a DAL", or use F# or something.

It's not like .NET itself forces people into these enterprisey patterns. Although I do cringe when I see huge projects, one file per type, half containing 2 or 3 lines of actual code.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#73

Post by platz »

unethical_ban wrote: post #46

> Why do we develop this way? Why aren't we considering the behavior of the application more than how it's stored? All of my projects now utilize a JSON-based key/value store. What a self-centered statement. "MY projects don't need ACID or relational enforcement. Therefore, SQL is useless."

Yeah, I was particularly amused by OP's statement here.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#74

Post by Maarten88 »

I agree with most of the critisisms, but Microsoft is also seeing those problems and is actively fixing them in ASP.NET vNext[1]:

- It's really crossplatform and open

- It does away with the IIS / System.Web dependency

- It has clean json based project files that can reference project dependencies locally and also on nuget and github

- It unifies the ASP.NET MVC and Web API frameworks and other good things like SignalR

Which only leaves the traditional mindset of .NET developers (SQL Server and Entity framework as the default data technology) as problems. In the right environment those remaining problems can be worked around.

[1] http://www.asp.net/vnext/overview/aspnet-vnext/getting-start...

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#75

Post by jonathanoliver »

Maarten88 wrote: post #74

I agree with most of the critisisms, but Microsoft is also seeing those problems and is actively fixing them in ASP.NET vNext[1]: - It's really crossplatform and open - It does away with the IIS / System.Web dependency - It has clean json based project files that can reference project dependencies locally and also on nuget and github - It unifies the ASP.NET MVC and Web API frameworks and other good things like Signa…

How many of these ideas would have come from within Microsoft had in not beed for the ALT.NET movement and .NET developers looking outside themselves to other communities?

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#76

Post by jonathanoliver »

com2kid wrote: post #4

Some really good criticisms, but I do wonder how long ago this developer left .NET. .NET is now heavily async based. WPF may have started it years ago, but async has been a keyword in the language for quite awhile! (I haven't used a proper lock in ages. Event queues are where it is at! Or pick your favorite paradigm, heck the framework comes with thread pools built in that it'll juggle for you!) In regards to .csproj…

I wrote that article at the end of January 2014. Technically I'm still using .NET because I've got a mountain of code that still runs on Windows. Bit by bit, I'm killing it off in favor of other languages.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#77

Post by bunderbunder »

bnolsen wrote: post #39
pjmlp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agree. Some developers like to live in green phosphor vt100 days.

reliance on debuggers is a wierd strange concept. Debuggers are utterly incapable in multithreaded environments. Just write damn unit tests and simulations!

Depends on the debugger, really. One thing the Visual Studio team's been doing lately that I appreciate is working on improving their multithreaded debugging story. Nice visualizations for keeping track of parallel call stacks and whatnot. The actual step debugger itself still leaves much to be desired - the UI doesn't give you a lot of help with keeping track of when a context switch happens, for example - but even there it's not utterly incapable.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#78

Post by Maarten88 »

jonathanoliver wrote: post #75
Maarten88 wrote: post #74

I agree with most of the critisisms, but Microsoft is also seeing those problems and is actively fixing them in ASP.NET vNext[1]: - It's really crossplatform and open - It does away with the IIS / System.Web dependency - It has clean json based project files that can reference project dependencies locally and also on nuget and github - It unifies the ASP.NET MVC and Web API frameworks and other good things like Signa…

How many of these ideas would have come from within Microsoft had in not beed for the ALT.NET movement and .NET developers looking outside themselves to other communities?

Probably none. Does it matter? The point is that they seem to have lost the NIH mentality, which is a Good Thing.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#79

Post by jonathanoliver »

sklivvz1971 wrote: post #54
wvenable wrote: post #3

I agree with the author on one point in particular: Choose the right technology for the task. The author doesn't state what his task is but he does drop a few hints that does indicate that .NET/Windows is the wrong technology for his task. I think the authors view of Unix guys is a bit misplaced. I guess I could be a Unix guy -- I work with many different operating systems, programming languages, tools, etc. But in a…

A million times this ^. So much of the criticism I keep on hearing on... anything programming-related comes from people that have experience of basically ONE platform, which they tried to use for everything -- and obviously failed at times. Changing platform does solve some issues but creates new ones. In time, once people experience a few platforms and they become able to distinguish when it is appropriate to use ea…

As the author of the blog post in question, I couldn't agree with your comment more. By getting outside of ourselves we are able to utilize those experiences to understand what tools even exist and when each becomes necessary.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework

#80

Post by jonathanoliver »

double051 wrote: post #10

> Not having a debugger is actually a liberating experience because it forces you to code in a different way. Not having a debugger is like living in the stone age. Personally, the the ability to inspect application state at runtime is non-negotiable.

Coming from C#, when I originally started using a language that didn't have a debugger I thought I would miss it. But I found that I'm more deliberate about my code because the debugger isn't there for me to fall back on.
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