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Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

ctvnews.ca

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Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#31

Post by Throwaway0812 »

mhurron wrote: post #5
transfire wrote: post #4

It certainly makes a lot of sense. Just consider the reduction in crime it could bring about. That alone is nearly enough to make it worth it. However, 20k is a bit too high. You don't want to discourage people from working altogether. After considerable thought, I think the equivalent of a part-time job at minimum wage makes the most sense.

> You don't want to discourage people from working altogether. 20k is basically poverty, you are not going to remove any desires at that level. > I think the equivalent of a part-time job at minimum wage makes the most sense. The idea is to make sure that when all else fails, you can still cover the necessities of life, things like eating and a place to sleep. Part-time minimum wage doesn't come close to that.

20k will go a long way. If you're single, you can spend 1k/mo on an apartment, which will get you a furnished place with television and wifi in a number of Canadian cities, and even downtown in some bigger cities like Montreal. You can toss $100/wk to groceries which will allow you to eat great food, and use the remaining 5k for renting a car when you need it, traveling, going out, etc.

If you're a couple, double that, $2k/mo will get you a wonderful place to stay. It'll be difficult to build a savings, or to have a few children, but it'll go a long way, and I think it'll highly discourage people from working after graduating.

Now, I don't think everyone needs to work in our society, but that's another can of worms.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#32

Post by ppereira »

ars wrote: post #9
trothamel wrote: post #7

As much as I like the idea of a basic income, it's hard to make the numbers work. Canada has 34,880,000 people in it, so a CAD 20,000 basic income would cost CAD 697,600,000,000. According to http://www.fin.gc.ca/afr-rfa/2013/report-rapport-eng.asp#a3 , Canada's total government revenue (at the federal level) was CAD 256,600,000,000. So Canada would have to raise taxes by 170% to provide this basic income, and raise…

Is it per person of per family? If it's per person then 20K is WAY too much. A family with 3 kids making 100K per year? If they actually did that watch the birth rate in Canada skyrocket.

A basic income, like welfare, would likely increase less than linearly with family size. For example, a household might receive an amount in proportion to the square-root of family size to account for the cost-savings of living together.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#33

Post by jdjdmdo »

randomdata wrote: post #28
jdjdmdo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a family with 7 kids would get the same amount as a couple with no kids? Something seems off here.

Sounds right to me. You don't make more in a professional career because you have more kids.

Completely irrelevant. They qualify for more welfare under the current system. Why should a couple with no kids get $40K while a family with 7 kids get the same amount?

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#34

Post by Throwaway0812 »

trothamel wrote: post #7

As much as I like the idea of a basic income, it's hard to make the numbers work. Canada has 34,880,000 people in it, so a CAD 20,000 basic income would cost CAD 697,600,000,000. According to http://www.fin.gc.ca/afr-rfa/2013/report-rapport-eng.asp#a3 , Canada's total government revenue (at the federal level) was CAD 256,600,000,000. So Canada would have to raise taxes by 170% to provide this basic income, and raise…

Keep in mind if you gave everyone 20k/yr, a lot more money would be spent in the economy, and a lot more money would be coming into the government through taxes.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#35

Post by pbhjpbhj »

mhurron wrote: post #5
transfire wrote: post #4

It certainly makes a lot of sense. Just consider the reduction in crime it could bring about. That alone is nearly enough to make it worth it. However, 20k is a bit too high. You don't want to discourage people from working altogether. After considerable thought, I think the equivalent of a part-time job at minimum wage makes the most sense.

> You don't want to discourage people from working altogether. 20k is basically poverty, you are not going to remove any desires at that level. > I think the equivalent of a part-time job at minimum wage makes the most sense. The idea is to make sure that when all else fails, you can still cover the necessities of life, things like eating and a place to sleep. Part-time minimum wage doesn't come close to that.

20k CAD ~= 19k USD ~= 11k GBP ~= 14 EUR

If this was per adult in the UK then I'd be getting a substantial income boost over what I'm earning at present.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#36

Post by wyager »

lotharbot wrote: post #30
wyager wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Part-time minimum wage doesn't come close to that. Then who do you think is going to do the part-time minimum-wage jobs? No one. They can just get more money for doing nothing. Obviously, employers will start paying a lot more for part-time menial jobs, or go out of business. All of a sudden, Canadians will be asking "Why did everything get so expensive?" and "Why can't teens find jobs these days?"

> "who do you think is going to do the part-time minimum-wage jobs?" If "Basic Income" is implemented the way I understand it, the income from a part-time minimum wage job would stack on top of it (minus some amount of tax). The idea isn't that you make more by not working. The idea is that you can live (not very comfortably) without working, and that every bit of work you do marginally improves your income and there…

>If "Basic Income" is implemented the way I understand it, the income from a part-time minimum wage job would stack on top of it (minus some amount of tax).

Based on the comments here, I don't think this proposal is for basic income. Rather, if you already make more than 20K, you don't get anything.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#37

Post by dmckeon »

harmegido wrote: post #19
wyager wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Part-time minimum wage doesn't come close to that. Then who do you think is going to do the part-time minimum-wage jobs? No one. They can just get more money for doing nothing. Obviously, employers will start paying a lot more for part-time menial jobs, or go out of business. All of a sudden, Canadians will be asking "Why did everything get so expensive?" and "Why can't teens find jobs these days?"

Well no, you wouldn't get more money for doing nothing. If you're unemployed with few skills, your options are this: 1) Stay unemployed and live off 20k/yr. 2) Work a min wage job and live off 40k/yr. Many people will choose option 2.

Also consider the cost of day care, for families of a single parent, or where both parents work. Plenty of numbers in:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p70-135.pdf

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#38

Post by nardi »

tomkin wrote: post #27
cpncrunch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those programs only apply to a small proportion of the population. This would apply to everyone.

I just assumed the article didn't address that properly. Simply because that number would be astronomical and not practical. It should only apply to those who require it, under a certain threshold.

That's not basic income. Basic income by its definition goes to everyone. That's what makes it an appealing substitute for minimum wage, welfare, etc.

Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians

#40

Post by [deleted] »

jdjdmdo wrote: post #33
randomdata wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds right to me. You don't make more in a professional career because you have more kids.

Completely irrelevant. They qualify for more welfare under the current system. Why should a couple with no kids get $40K while a family with 7 kids get the same amount?

[deleted]
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