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Why I can’t stop using Vim

kornerstoane.com

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Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#101

Post by dllthomas »

csandreasen wrote: post #84
kornerstoane wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was taught that one by the brother-in-law. He also tried to teach me 1234l (the letter 'l') to go to the end of a line. I figured out a better way pretty quickly on that one. I didn't find the magical 'g' until much later, and 1G was already burned into my synapses. I'm trying to change. It's a little awkward :)

That's actually kind of an interesting idea. $ for end-of-line always bugs me; for something so common I don't think it should require a chord. '999l' is pretty easy to tap out. On the other hand, it would probably be easier to rebind something like '-' as end-of-line. I'd do backspace, but I've already changed that to PageUp (backspace/space work great as PageUp/PageDown)

Is it common? It's really rare that I need to go to the end of the line and not switch to insert mode. If I do want to go to the end of the line and switch to insert mode, then what I want is A not $. Of course, there's a chord either way, but I'm surprised if you're finding it easier to type 999l than A.

Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#102

Post by doorhammer »

tomphoolery wrote: post #94
bnegreve wrote: post #52

I use a text editor because using a text editor that you've mastered is pleasant. (I'm an Emacs user fwiw.) I think we should stop trying to rationalize this choice. Or rather, we should realize that we like text editors because we went through a long training and acquired complex skills which are fun to put in practice. Being a power user of Emacs or Vim is is satisfying, the same way mastering a video game is satis…

If that is so, why do people change text editors? (I agree with you, I just wonder this myself)

I'm only speaking for myself with the below. ymmv of course

I get the "grass is greener" feeling sometimes, so I go looking to see if anything better has come along.

Then there's just the practical switch. My main job is in .net right now, while my home computers are all linux distros. It's made me search through a lot of editors to find something that runs well and feels good with windows.

I also just like to explore software, you know? A for instance would be Sublime Text. I've said it in a few other threads, but I do dig some of the features in ST2. They really did multiple cursors right. It's a really simple, but intuitive and powerful way to edit things. Using that on ST2 me want it everywhere else, and also made me fall in love with how they set up the command palette. Using emacs for a bit made me really dig how elisp worked. Light Table showed me another take on the integration of a language into the editor itself. So it's a lot of curiosity with that, and to know what's out there.

As an aside, if Neovim delivers it's promises, it'll probably solidify vim even further as my only editor of choice, but I'll still go looking around to see what other people are coming up with.

Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#103

Post by xg15 »

danford wrote: post #38
oldmanjay wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, other people's opinions about how I program are worth just about nothing. I'll never understand the sort of arrogance that leads to posting things like that. do you really believe you're so smart that you figured out the only way anyone should do anything?

Well, I wasn't trying to be arrogant.. sorry. But would you really take a programming class taught by a professor who doesn't know how to use a terminal?

Well, Alan Turing certainly did not know how to use a terminal :) For some reason his work is still highly relevant today. So yes, I would.

Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#104

Post by read »

disputin wrote: post #4

"/ for searching (really, no other editor has made it this simple)" Well, it's really esc-/ which is no easier than ctrl-f. Or am I missing something? Edit: Same with "1G to go to the top of the file, G to go to the bottom" - esc-1-shift-g vs ctrl-home. Same with ctrl-end.

Why is Esc-/ easier than Ctrl-f (or Ctrl-s in Emacs)?

Esc requires you twist your entire left hand sideways up to hit the Esc, whereas Ctrl requires you move only your left pinky to hit the Ctrl.

Ctrl is more efficient.

Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#105

Post by dllthomas »

read wrote: post #96
dasil003 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because as a programmer your time is dominated by editing rather than creating text, therefore it is more efficient for every key to default to direct access to an editing function.

That's too broad of a stroke on what a programmer does with text. It's not just about editing. It's also about (a) moving to the point where you want to edit, (b) moving to an other point right after you just finished editing. Switching between the two becomes harder when you always have to Escape, compared to having direct access to an arrow key. And (c) about editing. Why type an extra character (i for insert) to l…

In modern vim you do have direct access to the arrow keys. Rarely is this meaningful, for someone skilled in vim.

It can potentially be faster if you need to move just a couple characters over, but if you need to move 25? It winds up being something like: Esc 22hhhh

People navigate by jumping across words, across features, searching...

Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#106

Post by jasonlotito »

danford wrote: post #32

I went back to Sublime after using Vim for a while but then realized I was going to have a terminal open 24/7 anyway so what's the point? Then I learned how to use a terminal multiplexer and now Sublime and other GUI editors just hinder my workflow. IMHO if you're a programmer you should know how to use a terminal to the point that you prefer it over most GUIs (of course, you should always use whatever has the featur…

> If you haven't learned how to use the terminal yet (or haven't found a use for it) then you aren't a respectable programmer IMHO.

If you are mocking people and their mothers on HN[1], you aren't a respectful person. Within this entire thread, you are being disrespectful, arrogant, and insulting. This isn't what HN is about.

Correct your tone or leave.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7961305

Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#107

Post by bmj »

danford wrote: post #32

I went back to Sublime after using Vim for a while but then realized I was going to have a terminal open 24/7 anyway so what's the point? Then I learned how to use a terminal multiplexer and now Sublime and other GUI editors just hinder my workflow. IMHO if you're a programmer you should know how to use a terminal to the point that you prefer it over most GUIs (of course, you should always use whatever has the featur…

You've reiterated your point about terminal knowledge being the mark of a programmer, but you've not really outlined the reason for it. I'm sympathetic to the view that a programmer should know her tools, but this discussion has mostly become name-calling (on both sides).

Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#108

Post by read »

read wrote: post #100
DougBTX wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple modes allows the same keys to do different things in different modes, there isn't much more to it than that. Say, at a Bash shell prompt in a terminal window, pressing Ctrl+R starts "reverse command search" mode, so that pressing letter keys searches for commands entered in the past, rather than entering a new command. In this mode, up and down move through search results, rather than moving through the enti…

Why have a mode focused on navigation? Is there something this mode allows beyond navigating? What would be impossible to do if you didn't have this mode? The keyboard allows you to navigate too, without the need for a mode.

I interpret it as a positive sign when someone downvotes without an explanation (live above). It's a sign they don't understand a topic well enough to refute its main point. I'm sorry if the comment above also caused you to grow indignant.

A better response would have been to zoom in at the main argument and say the most important thing there is about it.

If you aren't downvoted enough you are probably not revealing anything controversial.

Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#109

Post by dllthomas »

edanm wrote: post #44
danford wrote: post #32

I went back to Sublime after using Vim for a while but then realized I was going to have a terminal open 24/7 anyway so what's the point? Then I learned how to use a terminal multiplexer and now Sublime and other GUI editors just hinder my workflow. IMHO if you're a programmer you should know how to use a terminal to the point that you prefer it over most GUIs (of course, you should always use whatever has the featur…

This might surprise you, but the vast majority of developers manage to get by without learning how to use a terminal. They really do. Saying you wouldn't listen to a developer that doesn't use a terminal is just silly - do you know just how many things there are to learn in the world of programming? Everyone has something they've never learned. Also - can I just ask, as someone who "uses a terminal" but doesn't reall…

It's not the terminal, it's the shell.

The terminal is a relatively standardized display with some severe limitations and kludgyness. The DOM of its era.

The shell, which happens to typically live in the terminal, has three things going for it that GUI interfaces frequently lack.

First, composability and automation: any action you can fire off from the shell, you can fire off from a shell script. Any data you're given by a utility, you can operate on and send to any other utility. Any data you're asked to provide can come from anywhere.

Second, narrative structure with history and a sense of place. "I did X, then I did Y, so now I need to Z... wait, what did X say?" is a natural mode of interaction convenient to many sorts of tasks.

Third, extensibility. Write any new utility (whether in the shell or in any language other you choose) and it is quickly a first class piece of your toolset. (This is the most common of the three to find in GUI land, though it often has limitations).

Re: Why I can’t stop using Vim

#110

Post by nutate »

bphogan wrote: post #72
manish_gill wrote: post #67

I spent this entire weekend setting up Evil mode for Emacs, in the Emacs Starter Kit package. It's been decent so far. Evil mode is surprisingly good, and I really don't think it could come any closer to vim emulation for Emacs. Took a lot of googling around to set up some basic plugins that I need - projectile for CtrlP etc. I think the only thing that I need atm is Magit integration with Evil and I'll be good to go…

Do you happen to have some resources you can share? I've been playing with Tidal, a live-coding library and it wants me to use Emacs, and I just... can't. So any info on setting up evil-mode would be great, especially since it's fresh in your mind. I've found some resources but really don't know where to start.

I'm using stock evil mode with tidal on emacs. It's pretty good, but occasionally I'll open up a weird window. I used emacs in the late 90s, so I'm not completely afraid of it. I recommend that you shouldn't be either. You can use v to select sections and then just C-c C-c to run them. Nothing crazy. Navigate around with standard vim keystrokes, including the windows.

For that matter, getting SLIME w/ vim to work w/ Tidal wouldn't be the hardest thing. It's just that no one has tried.

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