Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy • Hacker News Board

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#61

Post by tnovelli » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 4:12 AM UTC

nanijoe wrote: post #42

Wow.. it is evident that most of the commenters here do not really understand 1. The H1B process and/or 2. What the author of the techcrunch article is saying. In a nutshell, and H1B visa is attached to a company, so if you have one, you cannot go work for another company or even start up your own. What the author is advocating is that the president/government lift these restrictions, so that the skilled foreigners w…

Right on - H1B is akin to indentured servitude. It's hard for the rest of us to compete with a captive work force.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#62

Post by cema » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 4:43 AM UTC

tnovelli wrote: post #61

nanijoe wrote: post #42

Wow.. it is evident that most of the commenters here do not really understand 1. The H1B process and/or 2. What the author of the techcrunch article is saying. In a nutshell, and H1B visa is attached to a company, so if you have one, you cannot go work for another company or even start up your own. What the author is advocating is that the president/government lift these restrictions, so that the skilled foreigners w…

Right on - H1B is akin to indentured servitude. It's hard for the rest of us to compete with a captive work force.

I am aware of this argument, but it has always seemed strange to me. Surely slave labor is not efficient.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#63

Post by andrew_k » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 5:22 AM UTC

old-gregg wrote: post #21

More programmers to free the economy? Come on... To REALLY free the economy we need a million of doctors from France, India, UK and Cuba competing here, locally, against our home grown millionaire surgeons. The #1 reason companies are outsourcing and people are leaving is this enormous burden of medical racketeering. Come on, the world is so much larger than the information technology sector and most problems that ca…

I know several guys, who were doctors in former USSR, came to US, and now are working in department stores, or driving a taxi, because the path to get licensed in the US is too long, overcomplicated, and costs lots of money.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#64

Post by seldo » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 5:28 AM UTC

nanijoe wrote: post #42

Wow.. it is evident that most of the commenters here do not really understand 1. The H1B process and/or 2. What the author of the techcrunch article is saying. In a nutshell, and H1B visa is attached to a company, so if you have one, you cannot go work for another company or even start up your own. What the author is advocating is that the president/government lift these restrictions, so that the skilled foreigners w…

To be completely accurate, H1-Bs are attached to an existing company. You can transfer your H1-B to another company, as long as that company is will to spend time (a couple of months) and money (several thousand dollars) to sponsor your H1-B. You cannot, however, start your own company. H1-Bs are, as the blog post says, a huge barrier to employee mobility and the creation of startups.

Another common type of visa in the valley is the L1. Big companies like Google, Yahoo and Microsoft, who have foreign subsidiaries, hire people in those countries. After they have worked in the foreign office for a year they can apply for the L1, which is an "internal transfer". This allows them to work in the US, but only for that company. You cannot ever work another company than the original sponsor of your L1. This really is indentured servitude (though of course it's usually quite well paid).

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#65

Post by seldo » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 5:34 AM UTC

sachinag wrote: post #14

This is bullshit. Here's actual data: http://www.businessweek.com/table/08/0305_h1b.htm More (I don't know the source, but seems correct): http://www.myvisajobs.com/Top_Visa_Sponsors.aspx Lookit, a lot of the H1-B slots are being taken up by consulting firms. We don't have a shortage of H1-Bs; we just allocate them poorly. That's what we need to fix. As to the (what I consider a minor) founding issue, that's pretty s…

INS would stop you at the very first one. Do you think they haven't thought of this loophole?

INS has strict rules about the companies to which it will issue visas. Companies must have established physical offices, have existed for a certain length of time, have a minimum number of other employees, and be able to produce statements showing real customers and actual revenue to prove they are a "real" company.

None of these apply to a startup. Even for medium-sized companies, the lawyers, time and expense required to sponsor an H1-B is a big barrier to hiring immigrants on this visa. For a startup it's completely impossible: not just inconvenient or expensive; impossible. INS will not let H1-Bs join a startup, even a genuine one.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#66

Post by gaius » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 8:34 AM UTC

netsp wrote: post #58

ankeshk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Yes but Spartan rules of being killer fighters made immigration impossible. 2. The Perioikoi could trade with whomever they pleased - but - but no one wanted to trade with them because of the iron slabs being used as currency of exchange. Dig a little deeper into the motives as to why such rules were made by the Spartans and you will see that it was pure protectionism.

where would you suggest digging to uncover the motive of illiterate bureaucrats from 2500 years ago? I imagine it should be easy compared to uncovering the motives of living politicians in information societies.

The Spartans were not illiterate - they preferred oral history and verbal contracts to written records. Similarly they were perfectly capable of building things, yet they preferred that Sparta itself was a city of small buildings without walls. There's nothing left of it today.

Spartans, basically, eschewed possessions, apart from their personal weapons. They didn't want to grow soft and weak, so they made luxury impossible. An adult male Spartan owned some land, which was farmed by Perioikoi or Helots, and he was responsible for providing his share of food to the barracks in which he lived, but he could not "profit", ever. Perioikoi (permanent residents of Sparta but not Spartiate themselves) could and did get rich. Even Helots (slaves from conquered enemies) usually lived materially richer lives than Spartans.

What they should have done was announced that glorious deaths didn't count until a Spartan had had so many kids, that would have made everyone happy.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#67

Post by gaius » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 8:37 AM UTC

netsp wrote: post #58

ankeshk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Yes but Spartan rules of being killer fighters made immigration impossible. 2. The Perioikoi could trade with whomever they pleased - but - but no one wanted to trade with them because of the iron slabs being used as currency of exchange. Dig a little deeper into the motives as to why such rules were made by the Spartans and you will see that it was pure protectionism.

where would you suggest digging to uncover the motive of illiterate bureaucrats from 2500 years ago? I imagine it should be easy compared to uncovering the motives of living politicians in information societies.

On a slightly unrelated note, the way to win in Afghanistan is to plumb every Afghan home with hot running water.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#68

Post by sandGorgon » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 10:41 AM UTC

old-gregg wrote: post #21

More programmers to free the economy? Come on... To REALLY free the economy we need a million of doctors from France, India, UK and Cuba competing here, locally, against our home grown millionaire surgeons. The #1 reason companies are outsourcing and people are leaving is this enormous burden of medical racketeering. Come on, the world is so much larger than the information technology sector and most problems that ca…

This reminded me of Dr. Devi Prasad Shetty (of Narayan Hrudayalaya, Karnataka, India) who created a very innovative Micro-health scheme (http://www.yeshasvini.org/) of distributing the cost of heart surgery among the masses for a meager 10 cents (5 Rs) a month.

Today, approximately 1.6 million farmers are eligible to receive heart surgeries (and 955 other surgery types)

He has recently started getting traction in New Delhi for a similar scheme.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News/india/Delhi-does-not-want...

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/4585.html

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#69

Post by pieceofpeace » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 10:51 AM UTC

kiba wrote: post #13

fnid wrote: post #2

This is a very biased article. The author neglects to mention that a very large portion of income generated by foreign born workers is sent home by those workers. The money doesn't stay in America to benefit the American economy. It also doesn't benefit the case to call those opposed to more immigration Xenophobes . They aren't xenophobes, they are rationally aware of the situation. Also, what he says is not true acc…

All economies depend on trade and division of labors to be prosperous. So money going back to India and other countries may help increase global trade.

That money goes after tax has been paid, house bought etc. It has many immediate benefit for the host country. The host is not subsidizing the alien's home country.

Re: Free the H-1Bs, Free the Economy

#70

Post by ido » Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 11:36 AM UTC

TriinT wrote: post #45

old-gregg wrote: post #21

More programmers to free the economy? Come on... To REALLY free the economy we need a million of doctors from France, India, UK and Cuba competing here, locally, against our home grown millionaire surgeons. The #1 reason companies are outsourcing and people are leaving is this enormous burden of medical racketeering. Come on, the world is so much larger than the information technology sector and most problems that ca…

After the collapse of the USSR, lots of medical doctors and other specialized workers found themselves without a job. Today in Western Europe you can find construction workers who were doctors in the Ukraine SSR or Moldova in the 1980s, These people are a huge source of qualified work, but to the best of my knowledge only one country (Portugal) has shown any interest in re-training them as doctors to meet the severe…

> to the best of my knowledge only one country (Portugal) has shown any interest in re-training them as doctors to meet the severe lack of qualified medical personnel.

A lot of doctors in Israel are immigrants from former Soviet Republics.