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Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

nytimes.com

61–70 of 100 posts

Re: Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if the Russian's are targeting terrorists (those people who attack civilians) then we should applaud their efforts for saving civilian lives.

If it's an armed conflict between two groups of people who both consider themselves "citizens" of their locale and another country steps in, is it their right to decide which are the citizens and which are the terrorists?

Terrorists are people who target civilians, regardless of which country they are in.

Re: Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

#62
post #40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In World War II bombings targeted civilians, and were designed in such a way to inflict firestorms and terror. By body count alone drones and IEDs are quite tame. http://www.amazon.com/The-Bombers-Bombed-Allied-1940-1945/dp...

It is true that if you consider Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the situation has much improved since then.

Note that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not even the most brutal bombing runs on Japan that summer.

Two firebombing runs on Tokyo alone killed more people than the atomic bombs, and by the time of Hiroshima, almost every major city in Japan had been hit, some almost totally burned out.

The firebombing of Japan was so brutal that the Japanese supreme war council didn't even bother to convene until three days after Hiroshima - when the Soviet Union entered the war. Apart from being a new type of bomb, Hiroshima did not stand out as a substantial escalation.

Re: Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if the Russian's are targeting terrorists (those people who attack civilians) then we should applaud their efforts for saving civilian lives.

Even if you make the assumptions that killing terrorists is always a good thing, that it is possible to accurately identify terrorists, that it is possible to kill them without collateral damage, etc... How do you know if they are honest about their intentions? Just take Putin's word for it?

Well, at times there will be collateral damage when targeting terrorists just as when targeting other enemy combatants. Sure, Putin's (or any other's intent) is a different matter, but on the whole, any country should be allowed to use drones or any other technology to target individuals who target their civilians (eg, terrorists) as well as their military and infrastructure. What they do not have the right to do is target civilians with drones.

Re: Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad someone said it, but I have the feeling that if anyone could have slowed or reversed the national infection, Eisenhower would have been that person. (It would have been unreasonable to expect of Truman, anyway.) It makes me wonder if Ike actually even considered the MIC a problem during most of his presidency, or whether perhaps it was only when they stopped taking his calls as a lame duck that he had his ep…

It's easy to blame him, but he had surprisingly little power to stop it. The President (then, as now) could point it at any target he wished, but could do little to shut it down. Congress is where the true power lies. They could, with a single vote, shut down any and all of it. Blame them. Or, if you rather, blame yourself for voting the wrong people into Congress.

It's really a cop-out to blame the voters. We're never going to be as well-informed, persuasive, or powerful as a five-star general who is also a re-elected President. (No one will ever be that well-informed, persuasive, or powerful.) Eisenhower could have ordered projects, divisions, and fleets mothballed and sent the money back to the Treasury, and the media couldn't have incited any riots about it. Do you think Obama has that option now? Prior to WWII in this country the phrase "standing army" was one of derision.

At this point, the only way to stop these particular pigs from feeding at the trough would be to destroy the trough. That will happen eventually, but you might not enjoy it.

Re: Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

#66
Drones aren't too much different than normal airplanes doing bombing runs or any mission where a general sits back while troops/drones/missiles/robots kill the target you specified.. There is definitely a sense of, "pick a target, push a button, wait until he blows up" which the world needs to evaluate before allowing.

I think there is a limit to putting real robots on the battlefield, humans will always be necessary. It's always been possible to get the support of citizens and sometimes foreign government support by having real humans in the field doing humanitarian work. This cannot be replaced by dumb robots, a human face will be required to work with machines or else they will always be seen as inferior and untrustworthy.

I could see the US Government eventually having ATLAS style robots with tablets / large screens for faces, kind of like robocop but the soldier would just be remote controlling the robot.

Re: Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

#67
The Israeli's have saved many lives with drones both for reconnaissance and for targeting terrorists. I don't think they would be using drones for killing terrorists if it proved ineffective. It is hard to understand why drones are saving Israeli lives but not American ones.

Re: Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you make the assumptions that killing terrorists is always a good thing, that it is possible to accurately identify terrorists, that it is possible to kill them without collateral damage, etc... How do you know if they are honest about their intentions? Just take Putin's word for it?

Well, at times there will be collateral damage when targeting terrorists just as when targeting other enemy combatants. Sure, Putin's (or any other's intent) is a different matter, but on the whole, any country should be allowed to use drones or any other technology to target individuals who target their civilians (eg, terrorists) as well as their military and infrastructure. What they do not have the right to do is…

Imagine Russia blows up some people in Ukraine and claims they were terrorists, but the evidence is too secret to share. How should the US respond? Just congratulate them and move on?

Re: Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

#69
post #56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Heroshima and Nagasaki were terrorist attacks?

IIRC both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because it would hurt japanese military the most. Back in those days a plenty of civilians died anyway during regular bomb raids. But yeah, to some extent is probably was a terrorist attack.

That's the excuse that was given, but the regular bombings had been systematically doing precision raids during the day and indiscriminate firebombing during the night for months at that time. They were running out of significant cities to bomb well before Hiroshima, to the point where they'd started firebombing much smaller cities with no air defences or military presence to speak of as well - some of which were almost entirely obliterated.

Re: Use of Drones for Killings Risks a War Without End

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorists often hit military targets as well (Khobar towers, Beirut Marine barracks, etc.). Throughout most of "the troubles" the IRA targeted the military or police, should they not have been considered terrorists? The techniques of terrorists (say: car bombings) are shockingly little different in practice from drone strikes. Sure, certainly the intent is very different, but the result is nevertheless a disturbingl…

The IRA, INLA and their equivalents on the other side of the sectarian line such as the UVF were always considered terrorists here in the UK. [NB That's not to say I can't understand the violent reaction of the members of the Nationalist community - even if I am appalled by what they often chose to do]

Pulling up some quick numbers, the IRA (more properly the Provisional IRA) killed roughly 1600 people over 3 decades of operation during the troubles, with about 60% of those deaths being of military/police and slightly more than 600 killings of civilians.

During Obama's administration alone (6 years) more than 2400 people have been killed by US drone strikes, nearly 300 of them civilians (89% "terrorists"/military). Certainly that is a better ratio than the IRA, but the fact that we are willingly waging such a devastating war with significant "collateral damage" (in another 6 years or so we will have killed as many civilians as the IRA did) with so little public debate or oversight should be chilling to anyone.

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