its an interesting read and I acknowledge the intent to keep the traditional and authentic writing system for Urdu. I have a few thoughts on this though. One would be the legibility. Of course I cannot judge legibility of writing systems I do not like, but it seems that nastaliq would be hardly readable on a lot of mobile devices and I wonder how difficult learning the ornate script is. I am talking about alphabetiza…
A note about Fraktur: Even though the wiki article states that the main reason for its downfall was the Nazis forbidding it themselves, as a native German speaker I quite strongly feel it to be associated with Nazi culture - which immediately renders it impossible to use in any context, since you want to be as far from that as you can. Allergic reaction to anything resembling Nazi symbolism is quite strong in German…
The Death of the Urdu Script
51–60 of 141 posts
Re: The Death of the Urdu Script
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just out of curiosity, what concept is not expressible in English?
There are lots of examples. Citing just two out of my mind. Feierabend (German) - expresses the concept you are finished with the work duties for the day and can enjoy your private time with family and friends Saudade (Portuguese) - a mixture of loneliness, melancholy, sense of loosing part of you feelings, even mixed with a kid of sad joy, while remembering something that is no longer there.
If they were popular enough, we'd say: English does have words for those ideas! They're "feierabend" and "saudade".
Exactly the same as "gesundheit".
Re: The Death of the Urdu Script
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Sindhi, for example, is a naskh based language. Punjabi, which my parents spoke, on the other hand, prefers nastaliq, and regionally the two places are adjacet. Saying that Sindhi is Naskh based language while Punjabi is Nastaleeq based language is like saying English is Arial based language while French is Times New Roman based.
This is rather confusing. IIRC both Arial and Times New Roman let you express all 26 alphabets. Now if Naskh has Nastaleeq have differing number of characters, is this a mere font issue or is there something more fundamental differing between the two?
Re: The Death of the Urdu Script
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are correct about the history. Unfortunately the Abbasid empire came to an end in 1258 AD and Urdu wasn't even around then. I take your point that naskh has been wide-spread. And it is true that it is even in the Indian sub-continent. Sindhi, for example, is a naskh based language. Punjabi, which my parents spoke, on the other hand, prefers nastaliq, and regionally the two places are adjacet. That doesn't mean th…
I understand you might find my comments on history annoying, but I was pointing out a few things because the average reader is not familiar with such things, namely these scripts are not specific to Urdu despite Urdu reading-writing communities appreciating it and there is some undertone that Arabic scripts of lesser beauty are being forced upon Urdu readers and writers. All of them come from Arabic (not just the let…
I think that's where our disconnect lies and I do think you're reading too much into it. Urdu is not a child of Arabic. The word itself is Turkish, and the old story about Urdu's genesis is that it amalgamated during the military conquests of Babar, a Central Asian Turk who was funded by the Ottomans but operated independently. A great percentage of Urdu was Turkish (I once heard upto 40% of the words are Turkish), and it contains many Sanskrit words as well. This notion that Urdu is a "Muslim" language, and because of that, it has some special relationship or descent from Arabic, is more of a 20th century phenomenon having to do with Pakistan's affiliation with the Arab world as a result of becoming an Islamic Republic. That's what I think. You are welcome to try and persuade me that Urdu is some kind of Arabic-lite. But in my experience except for a very small minority of very recently Arabized Pakistanis, I have never heard of that view. What I have seen more frequently, however, is resentment against the idea that Urdu is Arabic's baby. Its kind of like how the Anglicans would resent being declared Children of Catholicism. Sure, without revolting against the Church there would not Anglicanism, but that doesn't mean that an Anglican would like to be told, "you came from Catholicism."
I will give you an example. I once had an Arab yell at me for pronouncing Eteraz with a zay ending. He tried to show me that since in Arabic Eteraz ends with a dawd, and since a dawd is a hard sound, I should pronounce it Eterawd. I gently reminded him that for me it comes from Urdu and Persian and I will pronounce it with a Z. That may irk an Arabic purist. But only if he thinks that all languages written in Arabic-script should follow Arabic's rules, which makes no sense. By that logic, Indians should demand that all people who count with a zero in their system should pronounce their numbers in Sanskrit.
I did not intend to write this much in response to that one sentence, but your point of view is something I've experienced frequently enough that I felt inclined to respond longer. It is not just Arabs who say things like this, too. As I mentioned it now includes Pakistanis themselves, who consider themselves "of Arab culture." An example of these Pakistanis are kids in Lahore, Pakistan, who have a license plate tag that reads, "al-Bakistan." They want to Arabize. In you they would have an ally, I imagine :).
I appreciate you looking into my other work. If you get a chance to check out the short story collection, you will find a pre-Islamic story set in Mecca there. There is also a story set in an imaginary state called Islamistan, and there I adhere to Arabic rules of transliteration instead of Urdu or Persian i.e. Dhulfaqar instead of Zulfikar, etc.
Re: The Death of the Urdu Script
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are correct about the history. Unfortunately the Abbasid empire came to an end in 1258 AD and Urdu wasn't even around then. I take your point that naskh has been wide-spread. And it is true that it is even in the Indian sub-continent. Sindhi, for example, is a naskh based language. Punjabi, which my parents spoke, on the other hand, prefers nastaliq, and regionally the two places are adjacet. That doesn't mean th…
> Sindhi, for example, is a naskh based language. Punjabi, which my parents spoke, on the other hand, prefers nastaliq, and regionally the two places are adjacet. Saying that Sindhi is Naskh based language while Punjabi is Nastaleeq based language is like saying English is Arial based language while French is Times New Roman based.
Re: The Death of the Urdu Script
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just out of curiosity, what concept is not expressible in English?
There are lots of examples. Citing just two out of my mind. Feierabend (German) - expresses the concept you are finished with the work duties for the day and can enjoy your private time with family and friends Saudade (Portuguese) - a mixture of loneliness, melancholy, sense of loosing part of you feelings, even mixed with a kid of sad joy, while remembering something that is no longer there.
You should compare Orhan Pamuk's treatment with Fernando Pessoa.
Re: The Death of the Urdu Script
#57So I skimmed the article once, then read it again. I see the writer is here. I just want to say I understand your sentiment, but your title and content are filled with some annoying misinformation and discrepancies. First of all, Nastaliq is not "the Urdu script". If you even skimmed Wikipedia, you would notice that the script does come oringinally from Arabic (where it is used, but more to your point, sadly not as m…
I find it interesting that many variations of Kufic script, which as far as I know is the 'original' Arabic script, seem to be almost ideally suited for print/digital reproduction. With the square normalized forms it almost looks like QR codes: https://www.google.com/search?q=kufic+script&tbm=isch This is in contrast to modern Arabic writing which seems to be geared to handwriting, with its flowing and connected shap…
Problem with that is, grokking text is difficult without a lot of practice. I am not a native Arabic speaker, and reading that stuff, even if I can read novels, the Quran, and weird pre-Islamic poetry (vocab is very different) would take me days to decipher if written in that script.
What is more funny is that there are not even short vowels in Kufic script. So after I learn to read and know contextually which letters are which, I would only know the consonants. And the vowels in Arabic are amazingly important (same consonant, different vowels = same word root, but meaning can change from book to dest to library to writer, for example), so Kufic is an easy way to bring an Arabic student to suicide.
Re: The Death of the Urdu Script
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just out of curiosity, what concept is not expressible in English?
There are lots of examples. Citing just two out of my mind. Feierabend (German) - expresses the concept you are finished with the work duties for the day and can enjoy your private time with family and friends Saudade (Portuguese) - a mixture of loneliness, melancholy, sense of loosing part of you feelings, even mixed with a kid of sad joy, while remembering something that is no longer there.
Although you might spend far more words on it, and it might be hard to properly capture abstract concepts in another language, these are not examples of concepts that cannot be expressed in English.
Re: The Death of the Urdu Script
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand you might find my comments on history annoying, but I was pointing out a few things because the average reader is not familiar with such things, namely these scripts are not specific to Urdu despite Urdu reading-writing communities appreciating it and there is some undertone that Arabic scripts of lesser beauty are being forced upon Urdu readers and writers. All of them come from Arabic (not just the let…
You write: "All of them come from Arabic (not just the letters, the scripts) as well, and as an Arabic speaker I find that attitude strange. I could be reading too much into it." I think that's where our disconnect lies and I do think you're reading too much into it. Urdu is not a child of Arabic. The word itself is Turkish, and the old story about Urdu's genesis is that it amalgamated during the military conquests o…
Re: The Death of the Urdu Script
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand you might find my comments on history annoying, but I was pointing out a few things because the average reader is not familiar with such things, namely these scripts are not specific to Urdu despite Urdu reading-writing communities appreciating it and there is some undertone that Arabic scripts of lesser beauty are being forced upon Urdu readers and writers. All of them come from Arabic (not just the let…
You write: "All of them come from Arabic (not just the letters, the scripts) as well, and as an Arabic speaker I find that attitude strange. I could be reading too much into it." I think that's where our disconnect lies and I do think you're reading too much into it. Urdu is not a child of Arabic. The word itself is Turkish, and the old story about Urdu's genesis is that it amalgamated during the military conquests o…
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> I think that's where our disconnect lies and I do think you're reading too much into it. Urdu is not a child of Arabic.
Ok. I think I should have been more clear. Urdu is not Arabic. I specifically mean the script, Nastaliq, and Arabic aphabet as used in Urdu is from Arabic (even though, as we are both aware, letters were added to compensate for the lack of certain letters in the original Arabic alphabet, re your Pakistan->Bakistan comment).
As for your insights in pronunciation, I LOVE the irony here. I was also studying Farsi for a while, and I routinely had trouble with this dispartiy, as I had to relearn sounds. It is hard to shake as the eight plus years of Arabic will not go away overnight. I also had friends who were advanced Farsi students with the opposite problem. And I have a father-in-law who teaches Arabic, and unfortunately I hear students and him confirm the religious Pakistani students are poor performers and/or argumentative in class: they have trouble realizing the difference between their knowledge of Arabic vocab and pronunciation through Quranic Arabic, Urdu, and complete inexperience for formal Standard Arabic (which is different from Quranic). I have also been party to these arguments, and heard of them. I have also been silly with my stuff.
In any event, I am amazed I am having this conversation on HN. I thought there would be such little interest in this topic. I am glad to have talked to you and others about this. I thought no one cares.