Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Being tolerant" of a person's views doesn't entail "being respectful of" them, nor does it imply one must simply abide their expression in silence. Here's a counter-question: why is it that when people who have extraordinary or extraordinarily extreme opinions are questioned or challenged there seems to almost always be an attempt to deflect the discussion toward one revolving around respect and tolerance instead of…
I usually see the opposite, the people with extreme opinions are often told their intolerance doesn't have to be tolerated. Often times this bothers me because the people who choose not to tolerate the intolerable are the ones who seem not interested in honest dialogue. My reasoning is because most often they are the people who also get to label what is considered intolerance and extreme opinions. Then, the use of su…
Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
81–90 of 106 posts
Re: Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
My issue is that I've heard many pro global warming scientists on public radio say that even if man-made global warming doesn't exit, we should have all of these regulations and tax increases because it's good for the environment.
So what exactly do you have to lose if you leave the oil/coal in the ground? It will still be there for your descendants. Especially, if you accept that global warming exists but is not man-made, it may be useful to keep backup of energy to be able to deal with it in the future, wouldn't it?
Making energy more expensive now reduces economic progress, which is exactly the thing we need to outgrow this and all other future potential threats.
Re: Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
500+ years ago, very few scientists of that day thought the world was round. A scientist should be able to study the other side without threat of being fired or completely losing their career. Your viewpoint is as close-minded as many religions.
I'm not saying that people should not discuss this. I'm saying that the debate is over unless substantial other facts are presented than we do now. Discussion value based on evidence and not conjecture. Claiming that this is the same as the dogma and falsehood of religions is plain insulting. Besides, the last time anyone thought the world was flat was a lot longer ago than 500 years, and 'scientists' as such did not…
Has the planet gotten warmer in the last 150 years? Yes.
Does that correlate with increasing CO2 concentration? Yes.
Does that prove the causal link? No.
There are about a million confounding factors that could disprove that causality. I mean there are enough man-made refrigerants in the atmosphere to literally blow a hole in the ozone layer. That's a real, proven, nobody-argues-about-it thing.
But if you look at the wikipedia refrigerants page you can see their Global Warming Potential (GWP). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants Many of them are quite high, such that even at tiny concentrations they can have a significant impact.
The wikipedia page on CO2 emissions has this picture, which shows that tropospheric ozone, methane, nitrogen dioxide and the refrigerants combine to have as much impact as CO2 does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth's_atmos...
That to me says that things are pretty complicated. The idea that our understanding of something that's complicated like that MIGHT not be complete isn't unreasonable.
Furthermore a lot of people say "climate change is settled, we need to do something about CO2" and I don't buy that argument. MAYBE climate change is settled, but even if it is there's a lot that can be done without even touching CO2 and all the economic pain and/or non-compliance to agreements that'll happen.
What I mean is that it might well be easier to deal with methane, NO2, and refrigerants than CO2. If it doesn't require the entire world giving up on developed country standards of living in the near future that's going to be a much easier sell. Mandating efficiency doesn't work re: jevons; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox Putting hard limits on emissions in the developed world is doable but nearly impossible in the developing world.
And even if we could get all the countries in the world to agree to hard limits on emissions, it's got to be population based, not history-based (i.e. the developed countries get larger quotas because they're already developed) or else you're basically making the undeveloped world slaves to the developed world. But even if you could somehow get the entire world to agree to such a thing, it's still terrible for one of two reasons:
1. if individuals can sell their quota on the open market fraud will be rampant since verification is impossible
2. if they can't, their governments will do so for them and we'll continue to prop up dictators all around the world
Neither is a very defensible moral position to take.
So while I'm less skeptical of climate change today than I was 10 years ago I am not 100% convinced as of yet (since complex things are complex). And all the "obvious" solutions to the problems even if I were to say "sure, it's a big enough problem we gotta do whatever we can!" end up with neutered, bad or horrible outcomes for the world. Possibly even in a worse way than if climate change continues.
EDIT: The other thing I'll mention is that we already have proven success on the trace gas emissions problem. The ozone hole should eventually close now that the problem has been solved. Rather than attacking energy (which is a multi-trillion dollar industry and affects every person on the planet) perhaps going after other sources would be more fruitful. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/ozon...
Re: Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consider relativity. There were some interesting observations that didn't seem to make sense (the speed of light is constant, regardless of the motion of the observer). Then someone figured out how to modify Newton's equations for motion to make this possible. Then someone else took this seriously, and gave a comprehensive explanation of the implications. Then someone built the GPS system, which would not work if the…
I'm not arguing that scientific theories aren't useful, just that the point of science is to continue to search for ways to disprove things, not to ever prove something. Considering the infinite amount of knowledge about our universe that has yet to be discovered or understood, the only way to go about making sense of it all is to start by disproving things one at a time. There is always a deeper level of understandi…
No, the point is to learn things. Any time something is shown to be less likely (disproven) other things must therefore be that same amount more likely. The goal is to concentrate that likeliness in as small an area as possible.
Simply disproving things doesn't help with this. Disproving things that we thought were true helps with this (a star viewed thru a telescope has a disc because of diffraction, not because of similar triangles; the earth really does move). Finding the limits of what we know helps with this (Newtonian mechanics works, but not for extremely small or fast things).
Given infinite possibilities, just disproving some at random won't help. You need to find which possibilities you can learn the most by testing.
There is always a deeper level of understanding and knowledge that could potentially make something previously thought to be true untrue.
This is not a useful way of looking at things. It's better to say, for anything that's true, there are limits within which it is true. Newtonian mechanics is not untrue, it's just not all-encompassing.
Consider all those infinite possibilities as a multi-dimensional space. A particular theory is a region (or set of regions) in that space that are true, and that aren't true. Any one experiment can test one point and see if it matches what the theory says. If you have a cluster of points that are all true or all false, you don't gain anything by testing more points in that same area. You gain by testing points near where the theory says the edge of a region should be. If the edges are all where they should be, you've proved the theory as true (or rather, true enough). If not, it's either wrong or more limited that you thought (it's less true than you thought).
Re: Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Somehow that doesn't seem to be possible. The entire question is a fraud of course : the argument for climate change is based on statistical likelihood of existing trends continuing based on past measurement. While that does satisfy some standards used in science, no scientist in his right mind would refer to that as "proven", because it isn't. So here's my version : 1) There is no argument from either maths, or even…
> the argument for climate change is based on statistical likelihood of existing trends continuing based on past measurement. That can easily be generalized to any scientific construct, since all predictions and theories based on experiment implicitly contain the assumption of their continued validity. Consequently what you're doing is conflating an argument against the metaphysical underpinnings of science (amusingl…
First in maths you have models. Of course some models match reality and some don't, but proven "given" a model means a very specific thing and is extremely rigorous.
Second physics, at least particle physics, has a lot of models these days. The most famous "in use" one is the standard model. It is not based on measurement, but on the assumption that a specific geometric shape determines the laws of physics, along with a number of constants, none of which can be directly measured (and generally, you don't use the "real" ones for calculation because they're somewhat inconvenient). The conclusions of the standard model are valid given those assumptions, just like mathematical theories are. That has good sides and really bad ones. The good, everybody knows. The worst: according to the standard model, gravity shouldn't exist.
You'll find most rigorous theories of exact sciences work like that. We can give a very, very thorough argument why electrical current and magnetism work in perpendicular planes, give exact values for the magnitudes, and you will not find a single measured quantity anywhere in that argument with one exception : the one that determines the units used. But that is an arbitrary constant, different for the metric versus imperial system.
Now I'm not saying there aren't variations on what it means to be proven within these sciences, but you can reasonably say that given the peano axioms and the model used, these conclusions are proven.
No such claim can be made for climate science. The "laws" of climate science are not the result of first principles (because they don't match observed behavior of the atmosphere), but statistical best estimators of observed measurements. This is absolutely not the same standard as used in exact sciences.
Re: Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
#86Let's flip this: 1. I will award $10,000 of my own money to anyone that can demonstrate, via the scientific method, that man-made global climate change IS occurring; 2. There is no entry fee; 3. You must be 18 years old or older to enter; 4. Entries do not have to be original, they only need to be first; 5. I am the final judge of all entries but will provide my comments on why any entry fails to prove the point. Obv…
So while we can show correlation and come up with hypotheses and theories etc ad nauseum, as I understand it, you can't "prove" anything. Supposedly. You can just show that your current theory is better than what we had before, basically.
So the "$10k to disprove" works scientifically. The "$10k to prove" should not.
Or so I understand it.
Re: Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
So what exactly do you have to lose if you leave the oil/coal in the ground? It will still be there for your descendants. Especially, if you accept that global warming exists but is not man-made, it may be useful to keep backup of energy to be able to deal with it in the future, wouldn't it?
Our descendants will be vastly richer and smarter and better informed than we are, so you're saying we should tax the poor to help the rich. Making energy more expensive now reduces economic progress, which is exactly the thing we need to outgrow this and all other future potential threats.
This could be a good argument if the actual profits from coal and oil were really going to development of sustainable technologies (or poor people, in case of argument from streptomycin). In fact, that's precisely what the carbon tax proposals try to induce.
But I am not convinced; oil and coal companies fight this tooth and nail.
Re: Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
My point is that you cannot even begin to ask what humans are doing to the global temperature if you do not even have an idea what it would look like without humans.
But why do you say "we have no idea"? Lots of things are known, like temperature averages and trends. As I said, I am not a climatologist myself. I am a bit surprised that tree rings are supposedly not accurate enough to say things about a 150 year interval. I was under the impression tree rings develop on a yearly basis? I suppose there are other factors besides temperature that affect their growth. Then again, for…
For this reason, it's essentially impossible to tell based on tree rings if it was warmer than today in times past.
Another thing to keep in mind is "the divergence problem" - several tree ring series right now suggest it's been getting "colder" for the last 50 years. This might be due to that U-shaped response kicking in, or it might be for various other reasons - some hypothesize it's due to changes in air pollution. It's a known issue, but not a solved issue.
Here's a good paper on the subject:
Re: Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consider relativity. There were some interesting observations that didn't seem to make sense (the speed of light is constant, regardless of the motion of the observer). Then someone figured out how to modify Newton's equations for motion to make this possible. Then someone else took this seriously, and gave a comprehensive explanation of the implications. Then someone built the GPS system, which would not work if the…
I'm not arguing that scientific theories aren't useful, just that the point of science is to continue to search for ways to disprove things, not to ever prove something. Considering the infinite amount of knowledge about our universe that has yet to be discovered or understood, the only way to go about making sense of it all is to start by disproving things one at a time. There is always a deeper level of understandi…
However, given a theory, you can prove whether or not something is correct in the model described by the theory. So while it can never be conclusively proven whether, say, the standard model matches the real world perfectly, you can most definitely prove that electrons behave in a specific way in a world that behaves like the standard model says it should.
That leaves open the question whether the real world matches the standard model or not, and while very compelling measurements and experiments can be produced, we don't really know. Well, we do know, actually. There's no gravity in the standard model, so it most definitely does not describe our world, which is why the whole string theory research is happening.
But climate science does not have that. It does not have tiny theories with constants that try to find the smallest possible unit and how it behaves. Climate science laws talk about volumes of air, say cubes of 10km on a side, and statistically it will behave like X. But nobody really knows why we got X, except that it "tends" to predict measurements fairly accurately. Why ? We have some idea, like "co2 keeps sunlight from reflecting out", but we don't know why the observed concentrations in the athmosphere don't match what you see in a gas experiment (basically in experiments greenhouse effects stop at ~250-280ppm depending on concentrations of other gases, doesn't happen in the athmosphere obviously). But climate science doesn't even try to explain this, or reduce it to first principles, they just try to model whatever they see.
Re: Physicist offers $10,000 for anyone to scientifically disprove climate change
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consider relativity. There were some interesting observations that didn't seem to make sense (the speed of light is constant, regardless of the motion of the observer). Then someone figured out how to modify Newton's equations for motion to make this possible. Then someone else took this seriously, and gave a comprehensive explanation of the implications. Then someone built the GPS system, which would not work if the…
I'm not arguing that scientific theories aren't useful, just that the point of science is to continue to search for ways to disprove things, not to ever prove something. Considering the infinite amount of knowledge about our universe that has yet to be discovered or understood, the only way to go about making sense of it all is to start by disproving things one at a time. There is always a deeper level of understandi…