Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy • Hacker News Board

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#171

Post by eropple » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:35 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #164

nickthemagicman wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, you can look at a poor kid born to a poor family who works his ass off every day. Then look at a wealthy kid born to a wealty family who works his ass off every day. Even if they make the same on all of their standardized tests, make the same grades, and go to the same college, and get the same degree..... Who's going to be more successful with the same amount of hard work? And sure there's outliers but it'…

>Even if they make the same on all of their standardized tests, make the same grades, and go to the same college, and get the same degree..... >Who's going to be more successful with the same amount of hard work? Success is tied more to education than anything. Good education just also happens to be tied to wealth as well. So by framing it with them getting the same education, you have actually eliminated most of the…

In the United States, success is much more tied to how successful your parents are than anything else. "Social mobility is dying" isn't just said for one's health.

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#172

Post by saraid216 » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:36 PM UTC

Arjuna wrote: post #66

JackFr wrote: post #17

And yet compared to those European countries, the US experiences significantly higher GDP per capita. Doing work and getting paid for it hardly seems like it's hurting the economy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP... As to the studies cited in the article I would point to the OECD labor productivity statistics which, in the aggregate, seem to disagree. http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?Data…

But that problem is so ingrained in our culture it is never going away. To your point, you may find this study interesting, entitled "Europeans Work To Live and Americans Live To Work (Who is Happy to Work More: Americans or Europeans?)" [1]. Here is another interesting piece on the topic, entitled "Reluctant Vacationers: Why Americans Work More, Relax Less, Than Europeans" [2]. As with anything, take these in stride…

Those articles sound really familiar and I'm pretty sure at least one of them has spawned a pretty sizable HN thread. Might be worth searching for if someone wants to dig.

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#173

Post by yequalsx » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:36 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #72

dasil003 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vacation policies are the least of it. How about the lack of a safety net? Take health care. Civilized people should agree that medical care in a rich country should be available to everyone. The thought of people dying in the streets from preventable disease and injury sounds pretty horrendous. But for the past 20 years we've been fed the same fabricated FUD about socialized medicine that has no basis in reality. Pe…

Your example of the cost of medication is an odd one. Most (all?) states in the US have mandatory generic substitution. That means the pharmacy must fill your Rx with the generic unless the doctor wrote "Dispense as Written" on the Rx. Now, if the generic was not available in the US that is a different story. Patents don't all end at the same time, so the drug may already be off patent in the UK, but not in the US. F…

Hospitals are not required to treat people regardless of ability to pay. Hospitals are merely required to stabilize a patient before dumping them.

The U.S. spends around 16% GDP on healthcare. This is by far the most of any industrialized nations. Americans have among the worst health care outcomes of the industrialized nations. Americans spend far more for procedures than citizens of other countries. Medicaid only kicks in for the extremely poor. Medicare kicks in for the old because it is unprofitable for insurance companies to insure elderly. Medicare is a subsidy for the health insurance industry. It allows that industry to dump unprofitable people and socialize their care.

That a person in the U.S. can go bankrupt and lose their home due to medical bills is obscene. The U.S. has an uncivilized health care system.

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#174

Post by hueving » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:38 PM UTC

cmollis wrote: post #9

It's frowned upon to take any time off in the US. I've seen it viewed as a sign of a lack of commitment or even laziness. Consequently, we take less time off because we're scared we're going to lose our jobs. No one is congratulated for taking time off in the middle of a project for your 'sanity' or 'to re-charge'. Everyone is scared. There is no safety net. It's no way to live, but it's our reality.

>It's frowned upon to take any time off in the US. I've seen it viewed as a sign of a lack of commitment or even laziness.

Bullshit. I'm tired of seeing this same thing echoed. I think half of the reason this is even said is that someone reads this sentiment on something like HN and then becomes self-conscious about the vacations they are taking and starts to spout the same garbage.

Everyone I know working in the tech sector takes at least one multi-week vacation every year and doesn't think twice about it. Perhaps Silicon Valley is not part of the US anymore?

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#175

Post by libraryatnight » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:39 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #20

Even worse is the new trend in technology companies to eliminate "Set Vacation". It used to be the case that you felt "obliged" somehow to take your 10 days of vacation a year, because you saw it piling up. Even better, if you were laid off, you could get the vacation in cash, and that helped when you were cut off without a job. But now, a lot of technology companies are saying, "No Set Vacation - you need to negotia…

Where I work is transitioning to this style. It's not affected me, yet, but for the employees who have been moved over to the program thus far I've gotten mixed reviews. One told me they were able to get the time off, but were told to make sure to maintain access via email.

That's not vacation in my book. When I leave for vacation I don't touch anything related to work. With vacation time, I just request it and as long as there are no conflicts the time is mine to use. I have no responsibility other than not being at work. I worry I'll lose that disconnect with 'unlimited vacation.'

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#176

Post by hueving » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:40 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #23

rayiner wrote: post #6

The article focuses on professionals, but I don't know if that's the angle I'm concerned about. American professionals work more, but they are also paid more. They also have much better vacation and leave policies. More concerning is the plight of median workers, who aren't making a lot more these days than their European counterparts, but have much worse vacation policies to deal with.

Vacation policies are the least of it. How about the lack of a safety net? Take health care. Civilized people should agree that medical care in a rich country should be available to everyone. The thought of people dying in the streets from preventable disease and injury sounds pretty horrendous. But for the past 20 years we've been fed the same fabricated FUD about socialized medicine that has no basis in reality. Pe…

> The thought of people dying in the streets from preventable disease and injury sounds pretty horrendous.

Doesn't happen in the US unless the person intends to do so. But that's pretty good fear mongering on your behalf.

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#177

Post by Silhouette » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:41 PM UTC

usefulcat wrote: post #155

mncolinlee wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ad also inspired several parodies, including this one from Ford. The Cadillac ad is clearly trying to sell to an affluent, white, conservative audience which still believes their hard work and no vacation pays off. In the ad, they show their success with the car they drive. It's a study in market segmentation. Ford's parody spins it around by focusing on social consciousness, eco-friendliness, and diversity, a be…

"... audience which still believes their hard work and no vacation pays off." People for whom that premise is untrue will still have reason to believe that it is true. Because the alternative--that they spent a bunch of their lives doing things that weren't really that rewarding--would result in too much cognitive dissonance.

Yes, that is a serious barrier to fixing the problem, though it does seem to affect younger US professionals as well.

From the outside, looking at the US labor market and the way those young professionals often describe their situation in on-line forums, it feels like everyone has Stockholm syndrome. They actually believe that the US is successful because of the appalling working conditions and not in spite of them, and even then they frequently overestimate how successful US business actually is by objective measures.

But no-one wants to speak up from the rank and file, because the cannon fodder who lead the charge rarely survive to enjoy the rewards for their bravery. And given the transparent corruption that seems pervasive in high level politics in the US today, it doesn't seem like the federal government will be doing much to help any time soon. Again, looking from the outside, it seems that a lot of the most promising developments in US politics begin as state-level movements, so perhaps we'll see some leadership from the more progressive states driving incremental improvements for employee conditions over time.

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#178

Post by securingsincity » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:41 PM UTC

ilyanep wrote: post #127

ghshephard wrote: post #20

Even worse is the new trend in technology companies to eliminate "Set Vacation". It used to be the case that you felt "obliged" somehow to take your 10 days of vacation a year, because you saw it piling up. Even better, if you were laid off, you could get the vacation in cash, and that helped when you were cut off without a job. But now, a lot of technology companies are saying, "No Set Vacation - you need to negotia…

I dislike seeing this sentiment all over HN just because it isn't as absolutely true as everyone wants to believe. I work for a company with unlimited vacation, and in my first 10 months working there will have taken ~3-3.5 weeks of vacation days cumulatively that I probably wouldn't have if I had to conserve a limited set of days. Nobody has given me crap over it, nor have I felt pressured to not take those days. It…

I agree, in a similar situation. However I think it takes someone who is confident enough to take those days off. I'm sure there are people in both of our organizations who would take more if someone told them they have X numbers of days to take before they lose them.

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#179

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:43 PM UTC

usefulcat wrote: post #155

mncolinlee wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ad also inspired several parodies, including this one from Ford. The Cadillac ad is clearly trying to sell to an affluent, white, conservative audience which still believes their hard work and no vacation pays off. In the ad, they show their success with the car they drive. It's a study in market segmentation. Ford's parody spins it around by focusing on social consciousness, eco-friendliness, and diversity, a be…

"... audience which still believes their hard work and no vacation pays off." People for whom that premise is untrue will still have reason to believe that it is true. Because the alternative--that they spent a bunch of their lives doing things that weren't really that rewarding--would result in too much cognitive dissonance.

[deleted]

Re: Workaholism in America Is Hurting the Economy

#180

Post by zo1 » Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 4:43 PM UTC

whybroke wrote: post #143

refurb wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example of the cost of medication is an odd one. Most (all?) states in the US have mandatory generic substitution. That means the pharmacy must fill your Rx with the generic unless the doctor wrote "Dispense as Written" on the Rx. Now, if the generic was not available in the US that is a different story. Patents don't all end at the same time, so the drug may already be off patent in the UK, but not in the US. F…

>The US has lower generic prices that most of the EU due to fierce competition for the US market This is not the case. From direct person experience I can attest that: Betaserc is 1/25 the price in Spain as the generic in the US Nebivolol is 1/10 Lovastatin is 1/5 Enalapril is 1/2

I quote the parent poster: "The US has lower generic prices that most of the EU"

Emphasis mine. Perhaps, if they were consistently "cheaper" than the US, fine. But your singular example doesn't quite contradict the person you're responding to. So it actually is the case, unless you prove your findings for other EU countries.

I have no idea if that's the case, just pointing out the obvious flaw in your logic. Perhaps a little too-quick to look for contradictions if you disagree with the general point?