Live data from Hacker News

The vanished grandeur of accounting

bostonglobe.com

21–30 of 54 posts

Re: The vanished grandeur of accounting

#21
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today, the internal ethics of accounting have receded from public view. That's one way of putting it.

Its not like it went from de Medici to Enron to Lehman without a little assistance. There's a much more interesting story about the rise and fall of 'the prefession', hyper-specialization, commodification, diversification, conflicts of interest and the (predictable) things that ensue. The fundamental innovation has long been commoditized. Yet there are also interesting lessons about the status that accrues to innovat…

To be fair, some chapters may have been left (or edited) out of this summary. Perhaps they think the more historical parts are more interesting to the Globe's readers.

Perhaps every profession will be "commodified" eventually, but how do you assess accountants as compared to say, attorneys or physicians?

Re: The vanished grandeur of accounting

#22
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not like it went from de Medici to Enron to Lehman without a little assistance. There's a much more interesting story about the rise and fall of 'the prefession', hyper-specialization, commodification, diversification, conflicts of interest and the (predictable) things that ensue. The fundamental innovation has long been commoditized. Yet there are also interesting lessons about the status that accrues to innovat…

To be fair, some chapters may have been left (or edited) out of this summary. Perhaps they think the more historical parts are more interesting to the Globe's readers. Perhaps every profession will be "commodified" eventually, but how do you assess accountants as compared to say, attorneys or physicians?

The reason its an interesting subject is that the professions (eg: law, accountancy, medicine) were initially set up exclude non-qualified practitioners for the purpose of limiting competition.

So, at its heart, the idea of being a 'professional' is not congruent with working in a state of pure-competition, in terms of the basic trade. The exclusionary structure of the professions was indeed a part of there allure.

This was justified in several ways for many years. But essentially the main justification(s) revolved around the concept of trust. A person needs to place fiduciary and/or implicit trust in his lawyer, his accountant, and his doctor. That is, he must divulge information to each professional which is sensitive--more specifically, it can be used to harm-- the client/provider of information in particular. To get the societal benefit of the professional services, it's crucial that such information flow occur, and that the client (or potential client) have his implicit trust maintained.

Since this is a complex-contracting problem at a game theory level, the practical way it was handled was by excluding a great many potential practictioners. Thus, the economic & social privledge was provided under the condition of self-policing to levels worth of such privledge. This is the origin of professional 'qualifications'.

So, the passing of the bar exam, or the medical school or financial charter examps, were the means to provide a structural gate of minimum quality and a throttle on maximum throughput re: competition from new entrants. This limitation on competition, not to mention the vulnerable negotiation dynamics (see: implicit trust), allowed the professions to negotiate "advantageously" free market rates for many years. This origin in political economy is critical to understandin the lucrative remuneration dynamics of the professions in a historical context.

So this at least paints the picture at a level which leads to some light shining down on a problem we have today.

(1) The professions are not at all suited (either culturally, or otherwise) to incorporate un-fettered levels of competition. In part this is mitigated by regulation; but other parts remain problematic. Its not just the issues around abuse of implicit trust. It also involves the sociology of "exclusivity" and how the cultural changes from commoditization make the concept of acting "professionally" problematic (either disadvantageous or otherwise prohibitively costly). However, the "professional" aspects of rendering "professional services" are critical to their value for greater society.

(2) The old ways of limiting competition are no longer capable of limiting competition. Nor providing the status boost that being (a lawyer, doctor, accountant) "professional" once had. The more obvious problem with this is the feedback loop with #1. The more subtle and vexing problem is how to solve this in a way that is consistent with "professionalism", whilst at the same time works from a broader perspective of political economy (ie, does good things broadly speaking for the structure of society, and the legal/health/busineess infrastructure that underpins basic civilization.

Hope that helps clarify a couple things.

Re: The vanished grandeur of accounting

#23
post #3

This is a really neat article, and I look forward to reading the book. The field of accounting really is a marvelous and, in current times, under-appreciated bedrock of civilization. In the course of certain matters, I have had the opportunity to work with forensic accountants, which is a field I did not know even existed. Basically, when $100 million disappears from a ledger, forensic accountants dive in and figure…

In practice, forensic accounting is roughly as interesting as archaeology. It makes for some great headlines in the end, but there is an enormous amount of detail and bureaucracy you have to dig through to get there.

I suspect that's pretty well captured in the comparison to "spelunking through git commits on a 10 MLOC project". (I say "suspect" because I haven't actually done either, thank God)

Re: The vanished grandeur of accounting

#24
Hi, any peeps here who are accountants or in finance or just investors who read quarterly reports and earning statements/balance sheets for fun and profit in trading?

I used to do it for diversified biotech's with multiple earning dates after a FDA rejection where the market either dramatically discount or over-inflate the stock price over the book value/IP of the company.

I know peeps who are also valued investors who similarly do the same thing distressed assets after a scandal with a CEO or something where the market's valuation is incorrect when you do the cash flow projections, tangible assets etc.

Now I trade options based on volatility, so try not to do as much directional trading. But love to hear some of your guys' accounting wizardry in reading those balance sheets.

Re: The vanished grandeur of accounting

#25

Hi, any peeps here who are accountants or in finance or just investors who read quarterly reports and earning statements/balance sheets for fun and profit in trading? I used to do it for diversified biotech's with multiple earning dates after a FDA rejection where the market either dramatically discount or over-inflate the stock price over the book value/IP of the company. I know peeps who are also valued investors w…

I don't always understand them, but I enjoy John Hempton's posts: http://brontecapital.blogspot.com

Re: The vanished grandeur of accounting

#27
post #10
post #6

In South Africa, we suffer from the opposite problem: chartered accountants are fetishized in the business world, far more than MBAs even. They dominate the leadership of big business and the CA(SA) designation, especially for a black African is a golden ticket to opportunity and a huge salary. Our youngest and brightest minds aspire to be accountants, rather than engineers. It may not be a coincidence that South Afr…

Given the state of South Africa is a former dutch colony, that seems to align with the article's historical facts.

That's an interesting idea, but it could be a bit of a stretch. Dutch Boers, later called Afrikaners tended to aspire to be farmers, rather than merchants. In the last 65 years or so, Afrikaners did move into the big business world, but that was a nationalistic reaction to the economic dominance of English-speaking whites.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the rise of the CA as CEO has to do with the complex conglomerates that were created during the apartheid era. Companies had limited expansion opportunities, so they'd use their capital in unrelated businesses. South African Breweries, for example owned a large supermarket chain. The focus on the bottom line in these complex conglomerates rather than a specific business was presumably a great fit for bean counters. And even though the era of great unfocused conglomerates has ended as expansion opportunities opened up when apartheid ended, CAs were deeply entrenched in the corporate world, and the phenomenon of CAs on top has continued.

Re: The vanished grandeur of accounting

#28
post #6

In South Africa, we suffer from the opposite problem: chartered accountants are fetishized in the business world, far more than MBAs even. They dominate the leadership of big business and the CA(SA) designation, especially for a black African is a golden ticket to opportunity and a huge salary. Our youngest and brightest minds aspire to be accountants, rather than engineers. It may not be a coincidence that South Afr…

Citation: https://www.saica.co.za/About/Regions/SouthernRegion/Souther...

Re: The vanished grandeur of accounting

#29
post #27
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the state of South Africa is a former dutch colony, that seems to align with the article's historical facts.

That's an interesting idea, but it could be a bit of a stretch. Dutch Boers, later called Afrikaners tended to aspire to be farmers, rather than merchants. In the last 65 years or so, Afrikaners did move into the big business world, but that was a nationalistic reaction to the economic dominance of English-speaking whites. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the rise of the CA as CEO has to do with the complex c…

As a counter argument out of all the C__ officers the accountant is most likely to actually understand the business. It's not uncommon for companies to focus on effectively irrelevant part's of their business.

Re: The vanished grandeur of accounting

#30
post #3

This is a really neat article, and I look forward to reading the book. The field of accounting really is a marvelous and, in current times, under-appreciated bedrock of civilization. In the course of certain matters, I have had the opportunity to work with forensic accountants, which is a field I did not know even existed. Basically, when $100 million disappears from a ledger, forensic accountants dive in and figure…

In practice, forensic accounting is roughly as interesting as archaeology. It makes for some great headlines in the end, but there is an enormous amount of detail and bureaucracy you have to dig through to get there.

You can use computers to do some of the digging:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law#Accounting_fraud_...

Post reply on HN