Inside the Mirrortocracy • Hacker News Board

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#81

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:03 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #41

facepalm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where is the fundamental argument against monocultures? The paypal founder seems to disagree? Is it just political correctness, or is there some hard data? In theory I am all for diversity, but I can imagine that in some endeavours it helps if you get along with the people in your team. I don't think "hiring what you know" is really that much of a mistake. I would hire my friends, for example, because I already kn…

I think that's the point of the poster you're replying to. You examine the merits of someone's argument, not the fact they're one of the paypal founders. That is specifically the cult of personality referred to. Some people on this site seem to be desperate to fulfill the rituals they think will lead to success. Most of success is pure luck, combined with some preparation and ability to deliver.

"That is specifically the cult of personality referred to."

But you are merely doing the same thing, except that you revere the author of the article more than the PayPal founder. Why should the article writer be more right than the PayPal founder?

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#82

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:05 PM UTC

gdewilde wrote: post #43

facepalm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where is the fundamental argument against monocultures? The paypal founder seems to disagree? Is it just political correctness, or is there some hard data? In theory I am all for diversity, but I can imagine that in some endeavours it helps if you get along with the people in your team. I don't think "hiring what you know" is really that much of a mistake. I would hire my friends, for example, because I already kn…

Oh, let me enlighten you, People do what it takes to get a job. With the exception of 3 or 4 people you really know, that friend of yours, thats not a real friend, he couldn't care less about you. What you have is an employee skilled in pretending to be your friend. It was the only job requirement! You met him because you "accidentally" ran into him. You get along with him because he is a great performer. He likes th…

That's a zero value argument because psychopaths will mimic whatever criterion you have. So the argument "psychopaths will hack your criterion" is worthless.

And the point in things like musical taste and blogs is that they are not that easy to fake. You have to make a real investment (spend time listening to music, reading,...). That's the point of signaling, which is what muscial taste is.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#83

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:08 PM UTC

belandrew wrote: post #39

facepalm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where is the fundamental argument against monocultures? The paypal founder seems to disagree? Is it just political correctness, or is there some hard data? In theory I am all for diversity, but I can imagine that in some endeavours it helps if you get along with the people in your team. I don't think "hiring what you know" is really that much of a mistake. I would hire my friends, for example, because I already kn…

The fundamental argument is that if you hire more similar people, you will get similar results. Are you a billionaire yet? If not, maybe you should hire some different types of people in order to deliver different results. People with different mindsets will challenge you. They will disagree with your decisions. They will think of different approaches that may be much better than what you are doing. If you let them,…

"People with different mindsets will challenge you. They will disagree with your decisions."

Which might significantly slow you down. Maybe there are different times for different approaches.

And if you just want a job done, why would you want to hire somebody who disagrees with you?

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#84

Post by coriny » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #27

lilsunnybee wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically you don't really believe that diversity and social mobility are important with regards to the workplace.

I am asking you why you think it is important. I am not really interested in "beliefs". It seems curious that it is automatically assumed that diversity is beneficial. As I said, maybe there is a reason why your pals are your pals and you work better together with them than with strangers. I guess I believe that a company does not have a moral obligation to foster diversity and social mobility. It is possible that a…

I don't seem to be able to reply to your reply to me further down the thread. So I'm just going to ask one question: "What is the point of asking for hard data when you're going to dismiss it since it doesn't agree with you?" If you don't believe the body of research, you are not going to agree with anyone's opinions here (unless of course they match your own).

The result has been repeated ad nauseum, it's not exactly hard science, though getting into the precise details is. Otherwise, the old mantra is, if you don't believe it, try it yourself.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#85

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:13 PM UTC

coriny wrote: post #68

facepalm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am asking you why you think it is important. I am not really interested in "beliefs". It seems curious that it is automatically assumed that diversity is beneficial. As I said, maybe there is a reason why your pals are your pals and you work better together with them than with strangers. I guess I believe that a company does not have a moral obligation to foster diversity and social mobility. It is possible that a…

There's been quite a bit of research into group composition and dynamics and their effect on problem solving. In short, the main body of research seems to suggest that diverse groups show a higher group intelligence than homogeneous groups (have a search on google scholar). This is likely to do with a diverse group having a wider range of experiences, and more view points, to draw on in solving a problem. Ultimately,…

In response to your "hard data" reply: then point me to some specific articles to look at. "google for it" is just not good enough. You can find proof of anything by googling for it (global warming and anti global warming, creationism, evolution theory...).

Point me to some specific data. otherwise, how can I possible reply?

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#86

Post by BSousa » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:14 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #71

VexXtreme wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is a good/correct hiring criterion? I was under the impression that nobody really knows. Actually I can't believe you can say this with a straight face. It is well known what a good hiring criterion is (e.g. productive, smart, not an asshole, can work with different people etc). All these things can be sussed out during the interview process quite professionally without resorting to questioning people's mus…

"productive, smart, not an asshole, can work with different people etc" People seem to struggle to determine those things during an interview, though. If you don't understand me, I can only diagnose a lack of curiosity on your part. Otherwise you would have read some of the countless articles on hiring issues by now. " people who can't get along with anyone who is not exactly like them" I never said anything like tha…

While I agree with some points you make, and disagree with others, you are rubbing people the wrong way by using statements like "I am sure there are loads of companies that are perfect for you, because they only require blue collar programming drones" denigrating companies/people that aren't like you.

I personally have made friends at work, but it had nothing to do if they read Spolsky, they snowboarded or listen to whatever things you are implied are a positive filter in the interview process. From everywhere I've worked, I would say 99% of the people you work with won't be your friends, and that is fine, heck, even a positive thing in my opinion and assuming that people that don't conform to your idea of a worker are just 'drones' does make it hard to agree with you on other points you make.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#87

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:15 PM UTC

belandrew wrote: post #39

facepalm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where is the fundamental argument against monocultures? The paypal founder seems to disagree? Is it just political correctness, or is there some hard data? In theory I am all for diversity, but I can imagine that in some endeavours it helps if you get along with the people in your team. I don't think "hiring what you know" is really that much of a mistake. I would hire my friends, for example, because I already kn…

The fundamental argument is that if you hire more similar people, you will get similar results. Are you a billionaire yet? If not, maybe you should hire some different types of people in order to deliver different results. People with different mindsets will challenge you. They will disagree with your decisions. They will think of different approaches that may be much better than what you are doing. If you let them,…

Another question: how would you hire, then? Just a programming test? Ideally anonymous, so that no prejudice can sneak into the assessment?

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#88

Post by FLUX-YOU » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:19 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #76

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why should it be good for me to work with somebody who only cares about Java? And what would you take about during lunch - Java development? Knowledge depth, for one. The time you spend reading about new trends and languages is time not spent getting deeper knowledge about the skills you already have. Maybe you spend just as much time as he does gaining knowledge depth in your chosen language and spend some of your…

"for no more work than it took to read a blog." But it shows you are willing to read blogs to further your knowledge. Presumably even voluntarily. Would you really say that is just a weak signal, especially in a profession that changes as quickly as IT?

I think it's a weak signal. It should be a nice-to-have, not a deal-breaker. The article's signaling is even weaker in my opinion, and those are deal-breakers of the most superficial kind. It's too easy to gain significant credibility for so little actual work.

>Well I initially said "if somebody doesn't know Joel or Graham, I would probably count it as a minus", not a deal breaker.

Oh, sorry. I still think it can swing opinions too much being what it is.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#89

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:23 PM UTC

BSousa wrote: post #86

facepalm wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"productive, smart, not an asshole, can work with different people etc" People seem to struggle to determine those things during an interview, though. If you don't understand me, I can only diagnose a lack of curiosity on your part. Otherwise you would have read some of the countless articles on hiring issues by now. " people who can't get along with anyone who is not exactly like them" I never said anything like tha…

While I agree with some points you make, and disagree with others, you are rubbing people the wrong way by using statements like "I am sure there are loads of companies that are perfect for you, because they only require blue collar programming drones" denigrating companies/people that aren't like you. I personally have made friends at work, but it had nothing to do if they read Spolsky, they snowboarded or listen to…

The "worker drone" description was in reply to "And I for one don't really care about having dinners with my coworkers, going clubbing together and similar nonsense. You're paying me to do a job for you and I will deliver my end of the deal."

What else than a worker drone environment is that?

My talk about musical taste or whatever was just a random example, because it is something people often talk about in the initial stages of getting to know each other.

What I mean is: why should it be a bad idea to hire based on how much you like somebody (given that you checked the required skills)?

If it really is a bad idea to hire based on who you like, then it seems to follow that ideally hiring should be done by a computer? Has any company tried that yet? For sure many already have automated filters on application, is that a good thing?

People here some to think I suggest a checklist including "same musical taste" and hire based on that. That is not at all what I mean. I just think it is ridiculous to recommend that you should hire people you don't like.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#90

Post by dkarapetyan » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:24 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #21

dkarapetyan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people live and breathe valley culture and others don't. I have met great programmers and just generally smart people on both sides of the fence. It's not the particular cultural understanding that makes them good or bad. It is usually something else. I wouldn't hold it against you if all you did in your spare time was paint portraits but for your day job you were a programmer. In fact that kind of variety in in…

So where is the fundamental argument against monocultures? The paypal founder seems to disagree? Is it just political correctness, or is there some hard data? In theory I am all for diversity, but I can imagine that in some endeavours it helps if you get along with the people in your team. I don't think "hiring what you know" is really that much of a mistake. I would hire my friends, for example, because I already kn…

I've been in both kinds of environments and I much prefer diversity. It's way too easy to burn out in a monoculture. I like working with people that have hobbies and passions both within and outside of work. It's just better on all sorts of levels to be in that kind of environment instead of one where people just parrot whatever is on the front page of HN. You learn more and consequently grow more as an individual in that kind of environment. That's all anecdotal but I'm not sure what you'd search for to find actual research on the matter. Micro studies show diverse groups often come up with better and more creative solutions when faced with novel problems.