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Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

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Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#151
post #98

Switching jobs works well when developers are in their 20's. But I've found in the 30's that a number of factors combine to make it much less attractive: 1) Each jump becomes less and less. There's an invisible salary cap for software engineers. By the time a software engineer is in their 30's, they've jumped a few times and are already close to the maximum. 2) There are costs associated with switching jobs. There's…

Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. In some ways, this industry is awesome: to be able to make six figures in your early 20s is an incredible benefit and potential head start on financial independence. In other ways, this industry is incredibly cruel: you will run into age discrimination and the other headwinds mentioned in your mid 30s, if not earlier. I tell the folks I mentor to think of th…

People should try to save early however for most people working a "normal" software development job being able to retire after working for 15 years is unrealistic. Learning to live frugally and to invest wisely are useful traits though.

I've never switched jobs to make more money. In every situation where I switched a job my current employer was willing to match my offer. I will switch jobs to work with smarter people, to work on more interesting problems, to work with newer technologies, or to fight boredom. In theory I would switch to a job with lower pay to satisfy other requirements but luckily I never had to do so.

I don't think there's much to the professional athlete analogy. There is virtually no "demand" for more professional athletes while the demand for good software developers is ever growing and is unlikely to show any sign of slowing down. There are cycles but the trend is up. It is also really hard to be a good software developer and requires a combination of aptitude and attitude.

I work for a US startup and I know we do not discriminate by age (if anything older developers are over-represented). In companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, more experienced developers (in their 40s and 50s) are pretty well represented (keep in mind that as you go back in time the % developers is naturally less simply because the industry was much much smaller). Saying that I realize that in some places simply being a bit older would be seen as a poor fit and definitely someone who is just starting to code in their 50s is not going to be looked at the same as someone out of MIT.

Another thing to realize is that software development is an immensely wide field. I think your advice is reasonable for someone who has only started writing code in school, works in relatively "easy" areas where a lot of expertise isn't required, is really in it for the money and approaches things with that sort of cold success driven attitude. People who have talent, go deep into their fields of study and are highly motivated are probably looking at a much longer successful career. [EDIT: In other words it depends on what types of software you work on, your abilities and passion, and your further ability to maintain your abilities and passion and expand your knowledge.]

That said there's absolutely no way to project what the world economy or job market will look like 20 years from today. There are likely to be pretty big changes. One can imagine a much larger % of the population working remotely. One can imagine some breakthroughs related to aging that will make the entire age issue moot. Who knows. My advice to juniors is to strive to be the best at what you do. If you're the best you'll always have a job. Professional athletes don't always stop working when they're 30-something, they can become a higher paid coach. They can work on TV. Lots of options. By the way the average age of athletes has also been creeping up.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#152
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big life hack is to learn to balance salary with cost of living. It isn't always about pursuing the highest possible salary, because that might mean you're paying most of it in rent. Consider a $75k salary in Texas. That's $4766/month net (or thereabout), due to lack of state income tax. Let's say you pay $1k/month in rent (very realistic for most of Texas). That leaves you with $3766. That $2750/month figure won…

Absolutely. Unfortunately, I live in a state where housing costs tend to be unusually high, with salary not that much higher than average to compensate (Maryland).

I just got out of DC myself - the salary in the region definitely does not match up to the housing costs. You can get a little smaller apartment in Silicon Valley for ~$2k and make significantly more money out west, which was a powerful incentive to move out of DC for me.

Saving is especially a challenge for me since I have an extraordinary amount of debt from a bad family situation financially - it's a miracle I landed in such a high powered career as software engineering. I have more debt than most in the profession I believe (~$200k, no house or car), which is just a bad luck of the draw. However, for me this underscores how much harder I have to work to succeed even more so that I have more of a fighting chance against my financial odds.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#153
post #78

This "loyalty penalty" is far from new. It was totally obvious to me, and to many of those around me, over twenty years ago. If you stayed at one company, you'd fall behind the industry-wide trend. You'd start to see people who were more junior overall, and clearly less familiar with your product, hired with salaries above yours. If you wanted to keep up with that industry trend, you were forced to keep moving. I eve…

> I even know people who deliberately did "out and back" jumps to leap-frog over others at the same original company. This is commonly known as a valid strategy at the place I work. It's very difficult to come in giving a shit about my code when the future of my position is a dead end.

The company I previously worked at advertised a position to work alongside me at my same level doing the same work, the salary being offered was 50% higher than my salary at the time.

I took this to my manager and all he had to say was "there's nothing I can do, I don't set these things"

It's downright insulting to see this kind of behaviour.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#156

For those of us in software development, an important thing to think about is what this does to code. The industry is full of old codebases tended by people who were never involved in the planning and initial design of those systems. Knowledge transfer rarely happens sufficiently to prevent accelerating maintenance headaches. I think that we really need to find different ways of developing software to deal with this…

Pair programming fixes the turnover problem

How is that related at all?

(If my company forced us to pair program, I'd leave in a heartbeat.)

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#157
post #94

To me it's pretty obvious and it's because of a simple, logical dynamic. If you apply for a better role within your firm, your current boss works against you. They may either block your move completely, or delay it. If you apply for a better role in another firm and get an offer, there's no way for your current employers to act against your interest. Companies can foster better internal mobility but they can never ch…

Dead men's shoes, this is called. You can only get promoted if the guy above you, for whatever reason, goes away.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#158

Switching jobs works well when developers are in their 20's. But I've found in the 30's that a number of factors combine to make it much less attractive: 1) Each jump becomes less and less. There's an invisible salary cap for software engineers. By the time a software engineer is in their 30's, they've jumped a few times and are already close to the maximum. 2) There are costs associated with switching jobs. There's…

Google, Facebook, Amazon paying significantly more is a myth, even if you include all the "benefits" (most of which most of us would never use).

They pay significantly more. Microsoft is another that pays a lot, especially to poach from those three.

It is not uncommon for a very good engineer with 5+ years experience to earn above $400K / year (total = base + bonus (if issued) + stocks).

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google, Facebook, Amazon paying significantly more is a myth, even if you include all the "benefits" (most of which most of us would never use).

After you've worked for 4+ years, a typical yearly RSU refresher adds up to around $80k+/yr. Add in $150k+ base salary and bonus and it can easily hit $200-300k or higher.

You're saying you get a yearly refresher that adds $80K/year? After 4 years, assuming no increase in stock price or your grant, the equity portion alone of your compensation would be $320K/year.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Glassdoor, Google pays 200k average and up 300k for software engineers. The industry average hangs around 100k for pretty much any salary data on the internet. Quote from my manager after a candidate turned down our offer: "We're not Google". This is responding to the candidate's "unreasonable" salary expectations. So yes, I do believe there are companies paying significantly more.

Patently false. http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm

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