We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work • Hacker News Board

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#101

Post by Nursie » Sun, Jun 22, 2014, 11:07 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #77

hawkharris wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a fascinating article in The New Yorker called "Twilight of the Brands." [0] The author's basic argument is that brands have historically filled an information gap. Before the Internet, when consumers didn't have tons of on-demand info about products, brands were a compass that pointed them in the right direction. If the last Sylvania TV you bought worked well, you might buy another one without hun…

One place where marketers have gotten around this quite adeptly is Windows PCs and laptops. Try searching for reviews on a laptop you find at Best Buy. There are none. The model number is 10+ random characters and completely meaningless. Comparison shopping between laptops on the basis of reviews is impossible. Consequently, they have you buying on 1) brand and 2) specs, which is right where they want you, and comple…

Ummm... I love my MBP but it's no way 'the' Macbook Pro until next refresh. I got a choice of two form factors and multiple hard drive/SSD, processor and RAM configurations.

The build quality is great, but don't pretend for a moment Apple don't play the specs game.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#102

Post by josu » Sun, Jun 22, 2014, 11:13 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #88

josu wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a consumer's perspective all I see is a bunch of high end cell phones with very similar features and priced the same. Nevertheless, many people decide to buy the Samsung flagship phone over the Sony, LG or HTC. Better economies of scale could be the reason if they decided to price their phones lower, but they don't. So that it's not the reason why people are choosing Samsung. About the competent design, I don't…

An economy of scale doesn't necessarily mean they price their phones lower. It could mean they offer more expensive products at the same price and with the same profit as their competitors, or offer equivalent products at the same price but higher profit than their competitors.

That's right. But they do not offer a better product, the flagship phones are all pretty much the same. And there is no reason why a higher margin should turn into a higher market share.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#103

Post by blairbeckwith » Sun, Jun 22, 2014, 11:30 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #101

superuser2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One place where marketers have gotten around this quite adeptly is Windows PCs and laptops. Try searching for reviews on a laptop you find at Best Buy. There are none. The model number is 10+ random characters and completely meaningless. Comparison shopping between laptops on the basis of reviews is impossible. Consequently, they have you buying on 1) brand and 2) specs, which is right where they want you, and comple…

Ummm... I love my MBP but it's no way 'the' Macbook Pro until next refresh. I got a choice of two form factors and multiple hard drive/SSD, processor and RAM configurations. The build quality is great, but don't pretend for a moment Apple don't play the specs game.

I think you know this isn't what he meant.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#104

Post by liquidcool » Sun, Jun 22, 2014, 11:46 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #77

hawkharris wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a fascinating article in The New Yorker called "Twilight of the Brands." [0] The author's basic argument is that brands have historically filled an information gap. Before the Internet, when consumers didn't have tons of on-demand info about products, brands were a compass that pointed them in the right direction. If the last Sylvania TV you bought worked well, you might buy another one without hun…

One place where marketers have gotten around this quite adeptly is Windows PCs and laptops. Try searching for reviews on a laptop you find at Best Buy. There are none. The model number is 10+ random characters and completely meaningless. Comparison shopping between laptops on the basis of reviews is impossible. Consequently, they have you buying on 1) brand and 2) specs, which is right where they want you, and comple…

And it's way more pervasive than that. Companies who make appliances, mattresses, etc. have been doing this for decades. It enables them to say, "We'll beat anyone's advertised price!" Since all the major retailers are getting models tailored and numbered for their chain, they know they can do this with impunity. This is one of the reasons it's so hard to find the models Consumer Reports reviewed at your local retailer. You have to buy the one from that brand that's close enough.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#105

Post by autokad » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 12:07 AM UTC

I had guest lecturers from chief data scientists of companies that purchase these adds for companies targeted to users. I was told most companies do not want to pay for the controlled experiments, and many times even when they are run for 'free' they do not want to know the answer. i was surprised at the latter

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#106

Post by autokad » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 12:14 AM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #59

gerbal wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For medium scale purchases with many interchangeable competitors, this may be true. But for cheap impulse purchase and for high-end commodities, brand still matters quite a bit. Apple and Samsung are two great examples of higher end companies whose products aren't appreciably superior or inferior to most of their competitors, but through relentless advertising, they have made themselves seem distinct from their compe…

Apple and Samsung are two great examples of higher end companies whose products aren't appreciably superior or inferior to most of their competitors I'm not sure this is true: Samsung is not a (particularly) higher-end company, and their phones at least are lower cost than Apple. In the case of Apple, their phones were appreciably better up until two years ago or so. Their laptops have been physically better in fit a…

samsung's SSDs are way better than non-name brand SSDs.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#107

Post by Gustomaximus » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 12:52 AM UTC

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #24

Discuss advertising with anybody and you'll come to the conclusion that apparently advertising works on other people . Who those "other people" are, no idea. I strongly suspect some people really are just statistics.

Other people here. I've been working in online advertising for 10 odd years and have seen advertising working and not.

This Ebay example was great showing both sides; bidding for their brand term was a waste of money as they are a brand leader not in a defensive strategy. Finding new customers was profitable. It seems they let the former get out of hand and dominate their spend mix.

I see similar situations of excessive wasted spend all the time as companies target the wrong metrics (note: there always is some). Until this study I would bet my house the PPC team at eBay were being largely judged by 'CPA' type metrics. Every year they would have tighter goals in a market that is getting more competitive so they go for cheap wins that look good on paper i.e.grab customers already coming in as you know they will convert. I see this at almost every company.

Profitable advertising absolutely does exist but like anything, you need smart people running the program and you can't surround them with targets that make them go for the wins that look good in the short-term reports. As much as we monitor more advertising remains part art, part science. And I say that as a guy that likes his data more than most.

Anyway, if you're being told ads only work for other people you're talking to the wrong people. I love my marketing and what it can do for a company when run well. If you have any questions I'll happily talk your ear off.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#108

Post by superuser2 » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:04 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #101

superuser2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One place where marketers have gotten around this quite adeptly is Windows PCs and laptops. Try searching for reviews on a laptop you find at Best Buy. There are none. The model number is 10+ random characters and completely meaningless. Comparison shopping between laptops on the basis of reviews is impossible. Consequently, they have you buying on 1) brand and 2) specs, which is right where they want you, and comple…

Ummm... I love my MBP but it's no way 'the' Macbook Pro until next refresh. I got a choice of two form factors and multiple hard drive/SSD, processor and RAM configurations. The build quality is great, but don't pretend for a moment Apple don't play the specs game.

This isn't about meaningful variations. Go to Dell and HP's websites and see how many different ways (with different model numbers and sometimes even prices) you can configure a laptop with the same screen, processor, RAM, and hard drive.

I tried it at one point and stopped counting after around 10.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#109

Post by rahimnathwani » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:07 AM UTC

blauwbilgorgel wrote: post #89

rfergie wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the significant attention this paper got about a year ago. In my filter bubble (and I am in a massive filter bubble with regards to this kind of thing) the attention was similar to the rest of your comment - focusing on ebays failures of execution rather than the failure of measurement. Other advertisers do not make the same mistakes as ebay with regards to landing pages, adverts or keywords selection b…

The paper sure is interesting and should add value to the debate and approaches to SEM. To discard it by scoffing at eBay's execution would indeed be your own loss. My biggest take-away is the saturation of advertisements and the effects it can have on running ad campaigns. Yours seem to focus on the common correlation-causation misinterpretation, and faulty measurement approaches. I do think there are enough problem…

People at eBay's online marketing department must be smart enough to realize that many of these ads were worthless to the company, yet it was worth it for them to empty the monthly budget on a list of generic keywords.

I read somewhere that alleged cookie-stuffers claimed that eBay's staff knew about the cookie-stuffing all along, and encouraged it so long as it increased the sales attributed to their own work in courting affiliates.

If true, these are both cases where incentive design (and measurement) are as important as people's skill with their craft.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#110

Post by gregpilling » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:17 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #65

michh wrote: post #19

I remember reading the tobacco industry was actually secretly grateful when the EU banned them from advertising. As I remember it, they were in a stale-mate. The market was pretty much divided up. Most people were loyal to their brand and that was that. Despite that, they were spending a massive amount of money on advertising even though their market shares remained unchanged. The reason was that if one of them stopp…

That also describes presence at trade shows and conferences. Quite often those are useless and costly in time and money. Yet companies do it because if they don't and the competitors do then everyone will ask "How come so and so wasn't at the show? Are they have financial issues?" and so on. So companies spend money on booths and talks without getting much back except to stave off the appearance that something might…

This has happened to me. We decided last year to take our tradeshow budget and spend it on "point of purchase" materials for our resellers. This has worked well, sales are up 20% this year.