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Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

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Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#111
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great explanation. It's also called "golden-handcuffs". In your 30's, I think you need to start thinking about exit-strategy (saving enough to live financially independent), rather than hopping to yet another job. Then, you can job hop down in salary and do something more fun.

Effectively you need to become a force multiplier, leverage your high level experience into a role that allows you to add value to 10 to 20 people rather than just yourself. eg. You were a 10X coder, now become a 10X manager. Also, if you spent your 20s building up contacts it becomes pretty easy to start a business serving the needs of your particular niche in the industry. Management and starting a company that gro…

I have no idea what makes you think a 10X developer can just "become" a 10X manager. This tendency of programmers to think they are automatically qualified, let alone interested, in being a manager is baffling to me. They are two mostly unrelated disciplines and in my experience, most programmers are not cut out to be managers.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#112

For those of us in software development, an important thing to think about is what this does to code. The industry is full of old codebases tended by people who were never involved in the planning and initial design of those systems. Knowledge transfer rarely happens sufficiently to prevent accelerating maintenance headaches. I think that we really need to find different ways of developing software to deal with this…

Pair programming fixes the turnover problem

How? High turnover + pair programming = paying significant amounts of money to upskill your staff who then leave.

It is no different to simply investing in a lot of employee training. Yes you keep the knowledge... But you are paying far more than if you just paid your staff enough to stay.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#114
post #109
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. In some ways, this industry is awesome: to be able to make six figures in your early 20s is an incredible benefit and potential head start on financial independence. In other ways, this industry is incredibly cruel: you will run into age discrimination and the other headwinds mentioned in your mid 30s, if not earlier. I tell the folks I mentor to think of th…

"I tell the folks I mentor to think of themselves as professional athletes with a 15, maybe 20 year career." what terrible advice! Please stop "mentoring" "Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income." I wonder how long it's been since you were young. While saving early is likely a good idea, it's also the time that student loans, young families, buying houses etc are all huge costs that very likely ma…

Agreed that it can be difficult to save right out of college. Due to my relatively low entry-level salary, as well as college loans and living expenses, I didn't start really saving/investing until I'd been out for ~4 years.

The problem is, though, starting saving/investing even just a couple years sooner can turn into much higher returns down the road, so it's a good idea to start that trend as early as possible. If you can find investments with a higher yield than your loan interest rate, it can make sense to pay the minimum on your loans and carry the debt for a while.

Nowadays I do save more than 50% of my income, but I also have no dependents or debt.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#115
post #111
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effectively you need to become a force multiplier, leverage your high level experience into a role that allows you to add value to 10 to 20 people rather than just yourself. eg. You were a 10X coder, now become a 10X manager. Also, if you spent your 20s building up contacts it becomes pretty easy to start a business serving the needs of your particular niche in the industry. Management and starting a company that gro…

I have no idea what makes you think a 10X developer can just "become" a 10X manager. This tendency of programmers to think they are automatically qualified, let alone interested, in being a manager is baffling to me. They are two mostly unrelated disciplines and in my experience, most programmers are not cut out to be managers.

Agreed, and also I suspect (or maybe this is just a silly hope) that the best developers in a company can often make more than their manager, even if their manager is great.

Now, moving up to director or VP level or higher (assuming you have the aptitude and desire), is a different story.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#116

This "loyalty penalty" is far from new. It was totally obvious to me, and to many of those around me, over twenty years ago. If you stayed at one company, you'd fall behind the industry-wide trend. You'd start to see people who were more junior overall, and clearly less familiar with your product, hired with salaries above yours. If you wanted to keep up with that industry trend, you were forced to keep moving. I eve…

There's also the pervasive attitude that people will stay because of the projects, culture, people, etc., and don't care so much about the money. That can be true to a certain extent[1], but I think the people who make salary-bump decisions think way too much of it.

[1] I suspect this is actually very true when an employee starts fresh at a new company, but, over time, the money (or lack of it) becomes more and more important.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#117
post #109
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. In some ways, this industry is awesome: to be able to make six figures in your early 20s is an incredible benefit and potential head start on financial independence. In other ways, this industry is incredibly cruel: you will run into age discrimination and the other headwinds mentioned in your mid 30s, if not earlier. I tell the folks I mentor to think of th…

"I tell the folks I mentor to think of themselves as professional athletes with a 15, maybe 20 year career." what terrible advice! Please stop "mentoring" "Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income." I wonder how long it's been since you were young. While saving early is likely a good idea, it's also the time that student loans, young families, buying houses etc are all huge costs that very likely ma…

I appreciate your interest in this topic and don't mind the personal criticism. I am sure some younger developers will read this, so for that reason I will respond to some of your points.

>

These are all great excuses for not saving. Life doesn't care about your excuses. You either find a way to do it, or you don't. Some people will have such severe extenuating circumstances that saving much or anything is impossible, and my heart goes out to those people (and my respect for fighting an even harder battle than the rest of us). But the majority of young, employed developers can do it. Having fun, traveling and enjoying life in your 20s sounds great (and you can afford some of that even saving half your net income); but what about being in debt and living paycheck to paycheck in your 40s, with the stress of a spouse and kids to support? Having substantially no safety net to quit your job or take risks, so that you become enslaved to a safe job even if you hate it? The parable of the Ant and the Grasshopper is as true today as it was 2500 years ago when Aesop put it into his book of fables. And the truth is, having fun, traveling and enjoying life is great at almost any age, and much easier to do (and more enjoyable) with some financial independence. Saving when you are very young yields such huge benefits due to compound interest over time that it looks like a magic trick.

As for me, my experience is anecdotal but I did live through some incredibly hard times, including living in my car and with roommates in shitty apartments, and eating off the dollar menu at McDonalds for a long time (not recommended), and making a lot of other sacrifices in my personal life to get to where I wanted. I also had a lot of fun, traveled very cheaply with lifelong friends and had a great time. It's a balance, but not one that most people seem to strike very well.

>

I didn't imply that your interviewer would be ''incredibly cruel'' as in they would sneer and snicker at your age and you would encounter an environment of overt hostility and rudeness. I meant the transition from being ''hot'' and persistently courted by many companies and recruiters to no longer being as desirable can be confusing, painful mental whiplash. Having known a few professional athletes, the parallels are actually pretty apt - it's hard to go from the spotlight to the background for anyone. I agree with you that many don't bother to stay current as they age, and they should. Continuing education is not stressed enough in our field.

>

I think this is demonstrably false, with a few rare exceptions. There is an age bias in our industry and it doesn't help anyone to pretend like it doesn't exist. In most startups and some company cultures it is worse, and in some company cultures it doesn't exisit at all, and in most companies it probably falls somewhere in between. I'm not saying that developers are unemployable after a certain age - they aren't, it's still very easy, relatively speaking, for them to find a job, but it might not be the job they want or the company they want to work for. Financinal independence gives them the freedom to pick and choose, or start their own company, rather than becoming sucked into slavery within a system that appreciates them progressively less and less each year.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#118

This article should create a fun discussion, but be aware that it's most likely completely bogus. I suspect it suffers from survivor bias: anyone who is in a position to jump ship and get a 20% raise consistently is not average. If you try to change jobs every 2 years and are not great at your current position, you'll likely be sorely disappointed.

True but then the article also brings up the point that most corporate bureaucracies are unable to notice talent and promote it on a faster timescale than the rest of the organization. In such cases if you know you're good enough to get better pay elsewhere then there is no reason not to.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#119
post #109
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. In some ways, this industry is awesome: to be able to make six figures in your early 20s is an incredible benefit and potential head start on financial independence. In other ways, this industry is incredibly cruel: you will run into age discrimination and the other headwinds mentioned in your mid 30s, if not earlier. I tell the folks I mentor to think of th…

"I tell the folks I mentor to think of themselves as professional athletes with a 15, maybe 20 year career." what terrible advice! Please stop "mentoring" "Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income." I wonder how long it's been since you were young. While saving early is likely a good idea, it's also the time that student loans, young families, buying houses etc are all huge costs that very likely ma…

I actually think more people should act as if their career is going to end in 20 years. Thinking in these terms really drives home what you need to do if you want actual financial independence. Even if the goal is not realistically attainable, it shows you exactly where you stand.

Let's say you think $1M is good enough for your notion of financial independence. Well, how can you accumulate that amount in 20 years? One way would be to invest $2750/month. If you can manage an average annual return of 4%, you'll hit the $1M mark right after 20 years. If you start at 25 (giving you a buffer period after college to grow some roots), you'll be good by the time you're 45.

Note that in this case, "financial independence" doesn't necessarily have to mean that you're wealthy enough to live your picture perfect life without ever working a day again. It could simply mean that you've reached a point where you don't need to save more and could take a 50% paycut without any serious long-term implications for your retirement. An example might be that you make low six figures up until age 45, surpass the $1M mark in investments, and then you get hit by ageism and your income drops by half for whatever reason. You're not going to be saving much anymore unless you make lifestyle changes, but you've still got the million bucks in the bank. The drop in income has impacted your ability to save and invest more, but it has had no effect on the savings you've already amassed, and it's still good enough to sustain your comfortable lifestyle with more modest savings.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#120

Switching jobs works well when developers are in their 20's. But I've found in the 30's that a number of factors combine to make it much less attractive: 1) Each jump becomes less and less. There's an invisible salary cap for software engineers. By the time a software engineer is in their 30's, they've jumped a few times and are already close to the maximum. 2) There are costs associated with switching jobs. There's…

Google, Facebook, Amazon paying significantly more is a myth, even if you include all the "benefits" (most of which most of us would never use).
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