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Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

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Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#51

I feel like the ability to job hop like this will be in fairly small, concentrated geographic areas. In areas that aren't as concentrated it'll end up being pretty hard to do this.

It's also a culture thing.

In the USA, selling yourself like you're the absolute King is ok, but in Germany many people would consider you an arrogant snob that's full of it, if you pretend too hard. They'd also consider someone who job-hops every year to apparently not be able to take responsibility and do their job well, and maybe to be problematic to work with (or they'd not need to run so often).

Switching jobs after 3-4 years is pretty normal, though. It shows that you can keep a job, and if you can show that you also learned something, that's good.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#53

I've been saying this for years now, so its somewhat comforting to see someone else repeat it with a bit more evidence than my personal anecdata. The main reason, in my opinion, is that corporate promotion practices have not responded to the incredible amount of intercompany competition for labor. At my current employer, the promotion process is a 3 month nightmare which requires an incredible amount of an employee's…

The thing is a lot of people value the security or aren't aware of the difference between market and their pay. Let's say this is 80% of people. If you're corporate HR, you can retain 80% of your top talent without big pay increases and promotions while knowing that you'll lose the top 20%. This may be palatable whereas it wouldn't be if you were only retaining 60%. I think Google and FB were the first to figure out…

You can retain 80% of your talent. You will be able to retain approximately 0% of your top talent, which is certainly a number less than 20% of your total talent pool.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#54
This "loyalty penalty" is far from new. It was totally obvious to me, and to many of those around me, over twenty years ago. If you stayed at one company, you'd fall behind the industry-wide trend. You'd start to see people who were more junior overall, and clearly less familiar with your product, hired with salaries above yours. If you wanted to keep up with that industry trend, you were forced to keep moving. I even know people who deliberately did "out and back" jumps to leap-frog over others at the same original company.

Where I part ways with the author is regarding what goes through employers' heads to perpetuate this. People who decide compensation seem to be in denial about the fact that people leave, or that their actions have any impact on how often that happens. Their biggest worry seems to be that if they make an adjustment for one person then everyone else will demand one as well . . . as though the cost of making such adjustments even across the board is greater than the cost of having to re-hire half the team every year. As a result they make such adjustments rarely, and try to keep them all hush-hush so nobody finds out, but it never works. People who were hired because they're smart tend to figure things out.

Obviously, some companies have figured out that plain old-fashioned money is sometimes the key to employee retention. Google has sucked in and kept a lot of people this way, for example. Unfortunately, the current wage inflation has its own down side. Maybe some day we'll find a place between these two extremes that doesn't either screw employees or stifle innovation by smaller competitors.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#55
This is absolutely true. The best opportunity to set your pay is when you get the offer letter, after that it's all nickel and dime increases. The next best time to adjust your pay is when you announce you're leaving for a better role somewhere else. You have to be your own agent and demand the market rate for your role, skill set, and number of roles you're being asked to cover. The only time your,manager might jump your pay without asking is when they realize you are drastically underpaid and could leave any time.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#56
post #24

I found this absolutely true in my short stint as a software engineer so far (1 1/2 years) - I have switched jobs twice, the first switch giving a 50% raise, and the second giving an 80% raise. Companies don't seem to be interested in retaining quality talent these days (or developing it), and get used to paying a certain amount for that talent, even if he/she is worth a lot more. It is in each person's self-interest…

My experience is the absolute opposite, but maybe that's the difference between the US (or CA) market and the German one. Germany seems to pay people by seniority, not by their abilities (which, I think, sometimes causes unemployment for older developers). Maybe it's an "equality" thing - so all developers your age will make roughly the same. Even with excellent reviews by my bosses (not to mention being a well-respe…

Start a consulting company with one employee.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#57
post #24

I found this absolutely true in my short stint as a software engineer so far (1 1/2 years) - I have switched jobs twice, the first switch giving a 50% raise, and the second giving an 80% raise. Companies don't seem to be interested in retaining quality talent these days (or developing it), and get used to paying a certain amount for that talent, even if he/she is worth a lot more. It is in each person's self-interest…

Why not consider freelancing? When I'm hiring full time positions I don't normally see anything wrong with someone who's going to a new job every couple of years - but I'd definitely have some big, red flags for someone who was jumping ships every nine months.

This is because hiring takes time, and is expensive. If the person I'm hiring is only going to be staying around for nine months, I'd be better off hiring a freelancer. To put it another way: what changed in those nine months for you? You must have felt at month 1 the compensation was reasonable?

Whereas with freelancing you a) are always getting the market rate, and b) can move around with impunity.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#58

This article should create a fun discussion, but be aware that it's most likely completely bogus. I suspect it suffers from survivor bias: anyone who is in a position to jump ship and get a 20% raise consistently is not average. If you try to change jobs every 2 years and are not great at your current position, you'll likely be sorely disappointed.

Anecdotally, I've seen a lot of developers that I worked with who weren't particularly great (or even good), job hop quite successfully. I think it depends on the local marketplace more than individual skills. (And the ability to interview well).

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#59

This "loyalty penalty" is far from new. It was totally obvious to me, and to many of those around me, over twenty years ago. If you stayed at one company, you'd fall behind the industry-wide trend. You'd start to see people who were more junior overall, and clearly less familiar with your product, hired with salaries above yours. If you wanted to keep up with that industry trend, you were forced to keep moving. I eve…

your right, been the case since I started in the 80's. Still the case, best way to get payrise to to show a offer and then they will struggle matching and then say you can expect a substantial payrise over the next few years, or some other excuse.

But what I have seen in the 80's, 90's, 00 and today are people who leave for a new job, then come back a few years later and in that process get paid more than there last job of which the company would not match the offer or come close.

This is why the only real way in many companies to get a pay-rise is a job change/promotion and this and as true work is often not valued and gauged by management tier then we end up with lots of managers. Sounds familiar too many in large companies.

But then in contrast in the 80's older people got paid more and younger people got paid less and personally experienced that in many situations when I would of got much more if I was just older, no more experience, just age. Now I'm older, that situation has changed and more bias towards younger people in many situations, experience ignored. But young people will burn 80 hours learning and doing work which the older person could of probably done in half the time if not less. But we all go thru that learning curve.

Not all companies still this bad, some better, but at the same time introduce new issues and with that the price of some free food to entrap employee's into doing extra free hours that far out-way they food investment is an area most overlook in a young industry like IT. Acting, accountants and other longer established trades have much more solid practice and rewards and protection. Heck who wouldn't want a repeat-fee like actors every time your code was run.

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