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Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

wikileaks.org

11–20 of 52 posts

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#11
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elected government officials from democratic countries and non-elected from non-democratic countries together. This is decided by politicians or bureaucrats representing government. I believe advisors from universities, think tanks and businesses are invited to speak. Why they keep it secret, I don't know.

> Elected government officials from democratic countries Such secrecy is incompatible with democracy, why refer to some of the countries participating in this as "democratic"?

You'r right. In a Democracy a secret trade deal could never happen because in a Democracy everything is decided on by its citizens, not elected officials.

However in the United States these decisions are not made by citizens but by elected officials voted in by citizens. Hence the United States is not a Democracy, but a Democratic Republic.

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#12

Secret agreements are automatically suspect but this seems like more of the same rather than a change in direction. This is partly a result of the move to multi-lateral trade talks (bad idea but when WTO rounds take a decade it's not unexpected), and partly inertia - there is little common agreement on how to prevent the next crash, so without a better idea we seem to follow the inverse of Einsteins quip - "the defin…

...like the main media organisations should have already got their investigatory acts together and made wiki leaks irrelevant.

On the whole, the "main media organizations" are an entrenched part of the system they'd need to be reporting on in order to do that job. That's a pretty major "biting the hand that feeds them" sort of impediment.

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#13
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elected government officials from democratic countries Such secrecy is incompatible with democracy, why refer to some of the countries participating in this as "democratic"?

The term "democracy" is kind of a fuzzy and abused word but if we limit its definition to include only the governments run by civilians voted in by fair enough, regularly occurring elections you could do worse. Democracies can have secrets, and in fact must if they want to achieve their interests. I am not sure why this would surprise anyone.

Secrecy is just incompatible with the democratic process.

People cant do informed choices and elect other people that represent them if the people in power make choices behind close doors.We are not talking about 2 corporations which are negociating something.

So no,"democracies" need no secrets. Or it says a lot about what the people in power think about their constituent.

Secrets protect those who are in power,secrets never protect the people.

Secrecy is therefore totally anti-democratic.

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#14
post #2

> proponents of TISA aim to further deregulate global financial services markets. But... > The draft Financial Services Annex sets rules which would assist the expansion of financial multi-nationals – mainly headquartered in New York, London, Paris and Frankfurt These multi-nationals are purely a product of regulaiton (in this case, more specifically, regulatory capture). Without regulation, there would be thousands…

> But...

International rules that enforce a reduction in national rules (deregulation) which will empower multi-nationals is not the contradiction you appear to think it is.

> These multi-nationals are purely a product of regulaiton (in this case, more specifically, regulatory capture).

Well they're purely a product of regulation only in the broadest sense: without regulations (rules and laws) you wouldn't have international trade, and so there would be no multi-nationals (or civilized societies).

Your more specific case ('regulatory capture') is an example of weakened regulation through infiltration / corruption so your statement appears to read: Multinationals are a purely a product of regulation (more specifically, weakened regulation).

> Without regulation, there would be thousands of healthy medium-size banks in the US, as there apparently used to be.

What do you mean by 'Without regulation'? If taken literally it would be impossible to define what a 'bank' is, so I assume your definition of 'Without regulation' involves regulations - which makes for a very confusing definition.

You imply there is an optimal outcome (thousands of medium-sized banks) being suppressed through regulation. What regulations force all banks to move quickly to a few larger banks? Usually these sorts of market regulations are about stopping that practice: for instance in Australia there is a 'four pillars policy' which stops mergers of the four largest banks. Without this regulation there would be less competition.

> Overall, to characterize this as "deregulation" is completely sloppy thinking. We are never going to get a better situation when people think sloppily like this. To do so is, in practice, a moral crime. It supports maintaining the status quo through confusion.

Characterising deregulation as deregulation is sloppy thinking? Let's back up: there is an international agreement which aims to enforce further deregulation of nation states... and characterising this as deregulation is sloppy thinking?

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#15
post #2

> proponents of TISA aim to further deregulate global financial services markets. But... > The draft Financial Services Annex sets rules which would assist the expansion of financial multi-nationals – mainly headquartered in New York, London, Paris and Frankfurt These multi-nationals are purely a product of regulaiton (in this case, more specifically, regulatory capture). Without regulation, there would be thousands…

Overall, to characterize this as "deregulation" is completely sloppy thinking. We are never going to get a better situation when people think sloppily like this. To do so is, in practice, a moral crime. It supports maintaining the status quo through confusion. Well put. A problem with "deregulation" is that unless all regulations are being removed it's hard to tell what the new state of regulation will be. There are…

> A problem with "deregulation" is that unless all regulations are being removed it's hard to tell what the new state of regulation will be.

Yes it appears to be a fatal problem, considering an area with no regulations whatsoever is simply called 'lawless'.

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#16
post #14
post #2

> proponents of TISA aim to further deregulate global financial services markets. But... > The draft Financial Services Annex sets rules which would assist the expansion of financial multi-nationals – mainly headquartered in New York, London, Paris and Frankfurt These multi-nationals are purely a product of regulaiton (in this case, more specifically, regulatory capture). Without regulation, there would be thousands…

> But... International rules that enforce a reduction in national rules (deregulation) which will empower multi-nationals is not the contradiction you appear to think it is. > These multi-nationals are purely a product of regulaiton (in this case, more specifically, regulatory capture). Well they're purely a product of regulation only in the broadest sense: without regulations (rules and laws) you wouldn't have inter…

You are conflating two different and commonly-used meanings of the word "regulation."

In (fairly) common parlance, "regulation" means governmental rules that violate individual sovereignty. For examples, laws like Sarbanes-Oxley. These are laws under which the government initiates force against market participants to try to force a desired outcome.

Proper laws merely protect individual sovereignty. For example, you can't use force against someone, whether physically or through possessing something that violates a contract with them (which is fraud). Only the government can use force, and only in retaliation to protect sovereignty.

The ethical basis for this distinction is that it is in everyone'e self-interest to be protected from the initiaion of force in general, while it is against everyone's self-interest to be vulnerable to the initiaition of force, in general. Thus, regulatory laws are wrong.

P.S. If Australia only have four banks, instead of forty or four hundred, it is because of regulation (in my sense of the word).

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#17
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "democracy" is kind of a fuzzy and abused word but if we limit its definition to include only the governments run by civilians voted in by fair enough, regularly occurring elections you could do worse. Democracies can have secrets, and in fact must if they want to achieve their interests. I am not sure why this would surprise anyone.

WHy do you say "must have secrets"? What part of "democracy" (or even "representative democracy", a republic perhaps) axiomatically requires secrets of any sort? Trade agreement negotiations almost axiomatically do not require secrets. If they're "negotiations" then everything ends up coming out in the wash, eh?

Without secrecy concerning the details during negotiation, it would be very very hard to make trade agreements. Negotiation involves a lot of give and take. If that was all public, then as soon as our negotiators conceded on, say, some term that was going to help our automobile industry in order to gain some term that will help our garment industry, there would be a huge outcry from the automobile industry, and soon the negotiators would come under intense pressure to get that pro-automobile industry term back.

Secrecy, at least concerning the details, during negotiation gives the negotiators a better opportunity to work out a deal that best serves the interests of the country as a whole.

Note that I'm only talking about secrecy during negotiation. The result of the negotiations should be made public well before Congress votes on it, to give the country time to decide on whether to accept or not.

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#18
post #2

> proponents of TISA aim to further deregulate global financial services markets. But... > The draft Financial Services Annex sets rules which would assist the expansion of financial multi-nationals – mainly headquartered in New York, London, Paris and Frankfurt These multi-nationals are purely a product of regulaiton (in this case, more specifically, regulatory capture). Without regulation, there would be thousands…

> Without regulation, there would be thousands of healthy medium-size banks in the US, as there apparently used to be.

Because technological advancements and economic pressures are completely blameless?

Make global communications networks disappear, and you'll get millions of small banks, with no changes in regulation at all...

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "democracy" is kind of a fuzzy and abused word but if we limit its definition to include only the governments run by civilians voted in by fair enough, regularly occurring elections you could do worse. Democracies can have secrets, and in fact must if they want to achieve their interests. I am not sure why this would surprise anyone.

"Democracies can have secrets, and in fact must if they want to achieve their interests." I can see how certain things can be justifiably kept secret in a democracy, like matters related to national security (military, intelligence, etc.). But secrecy in business and financial regulation is just corruption. Especially when the interests in question are those of private businesses and may not be in the best interests…

I believe in this instance they're only secret while under negotiation, when congress votes on it, it will be open.

Re: Secret Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) – Financial Services Annex

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Democracies can have secrets, and in fact must if they want to achieve their interests." I can see how certain things can be justifiably kept secret in a democracy, like matters related to national security (military, intelligence, etc.). But secrecy in business and financial regulation is just corruption. Especially when the interests in question are those of private businesses and may not be in the best interests…

I believe in this instance they're only secret while under negotiation, when congress votes on it, it will be open.

"the draft has been classified to keep it secret not just during the negotiations but for five years after the TISA enters into force"
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