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Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

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Re: Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

#61
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know ICE is on it. That's just a VERY small part of the entire CMS, however. Why the downvotes?

I didn't downvote you, but vague comments idly questioning the point of the article usually don't do well on HN.

Oh, I should have written my post better.

It should be known that I love behind-the-scenes more than the movies, and I love these peeks more than anything else. Just was genuinely curious why NYTimes would take the time to show us. I don't think it would help any with the subscriptions/circulation numbers but I am probably wrong.

Re: Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would humbly suggest that static site generators are not nearly as popular as you might think if you only view the CMS market through the eyes of the HN crowd. SSGs are hugely popular among nerds and practically unknown among everybody else. The result is a kind of distortion where, to nerds, it looks like SSGs are about to take over the world -- "all my friends use them!" But step outside that tight network of peo…

I agree - I find the idea of static site generators (SSGs) very appealing, but they are not user-friendly to setup - unless you happen to be technically-minded. Some tell-tale signs that SSGs are made by programmers for other programmers: command line-installation and configuration, a liking for markdown (and a dislike for WYSIWYG). Just to be clear, I'm not knocking any of this. The fact that people have put their o…

I'd agree with your assessment. We're testing an SSG with an international website to see what the experience is like. We've traditionally used Drupal, although we use almost zero of the CMS-functionality of Drupal (hence why we were looking at SSGs). We're using Hexo for this deploy. Here's what we've found:

- For complex web pages with a lot of design, we have to put most of the content into .jade files - mainly because of the style of our webpages (long-single-page style with a lot of sections). If we were doing a more traditional page structure, then we could have markdown files. This is "ok" but requires content authors to get into .jade files which can be a little intimating. (if anyone has any thoughts about how to get around this, I'm open to hear them).

- We're storing the files in Github, but have now figured out that if we want a distributed team to work on this, we'll need something like Jenkins to auto-deploy to a staging server on commit. The problem is that the first thing people want to do once they've made an edit check the page to see if it worked. This is trivial in WP or Drupal, but without Jenkins in place, I don't see an obvious way to do it unless we have the content folks run Hexo locally (which I'd like to avoid).

- Huge improvement in the speed of the site vs. the Drupal website. Not shocking given the move to static files, but there is also a reduction in javascript - some of which was coming from Drupal.

- Nice to have all content under source control.

All in all, it's a bit of a mixed bag at the moment - the SSG is supposed to be a simplification of our stack, but now we have to run Jenkins to manage deploy (probably not a bad thing but no one here is an expert in it), and our content people are finding it a bit intimidating.

My worry: we setup all this stuff, and then someone key on the engineering team leaves and we're left with an overly complex stack vs. just going with Wordpress.

Re: Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would humbly suggest that static site generators are not nearly as popular as you might think if you only view the CMS market through the eyes of the HN crowd. SSGs are hugely popular among nerds and practically unknown among everybody else. The result is a kind of distortion where, to nerds, it looks like SSGs are about to take over the world -- "all my friends use them!" But step outside that tight network of peo…

I agree - I find the idea of static site generators (SSGs) very appealing, but they are not user-friendly to setup - unless you happen to be technically-minded. Some tell-tale signs that SSGs are made by programmers for other programmers: command line-installation and configuration, a liking for markdown (and a dislike for WYSIWYG). Just to be clear, I'm not knocking any of this. The fact that people have put their o…

I'd agree with your assessment. We're testing an SSG with an international website to see what the experience is like. We've traditionally used Drupal, although we use almost zero of the CMS-functionality of Drupal (hence why we were looking at SSGs). We're using Hexo for this deploy. Here's what we've found:

- For complex web pages with a lot of design, we have to put most of the content into .jade files - mainly because of the style of our webpages (long-single-page style with a lot of sections). If we were doing a more traditional page structure, then we could have markdown files. This is "ok" but requires content authors to get into .jade files which can be a little intimating. (if anyone has any thoughts about how to get around this, I'm open to hear them).

- We're storing the files in Github, but have now figured out that if we want a distributed team to work on this, we'll need something like Jenkins to auto-deploy to a staging server on commit. The problem is that the first thing people want to do once they've made an edit check the page to see if it worked. This is trivial in WP or Drupal, but without Jenkins in place, I don't see an obvious way to do it unless we have the content folks run Hexo locally (which I'd like to avoid).

- Huge improvement in the speed of the site vs. the Drupal website. Not shocking given the move to static files, but there is also a reduction in javascript - some of which was coming from Drupal.

- Nice to have all content under source control.

All in all, it's a bit of a mixed bag at the moment - the SSG is supposed to be a simplification of our stack, but now we have to run Jenkins to manage deploy (probably not a bad thing but no one here is an expert in it), and our content people are finding it a bit intimidating.

My worry: we setup all this stuff, and then someone key on the engineering team leaves and we're left with an overly complex stack vs. just going with Wordpress.

Re: Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

#65
post #30

Context: I'm a former copy editor with experience working for digital-only (e.g. Forbes.com) as well as print-driven magazines newspapers. One of the things that's difficult when designing a CMS that works for both digital and print is that there are far fewer space constraints online than in print, and you want to ultimately generate an article that works in both formats. (Oh, and on mobile, and in a condensed versi…

NPR has a system call COPE (Create Once Publish Everywhere) use to COPA Create Once Publish Anywhere but they modified the data structure again. The system takes a DBA kind of approach to defining your "model." Ie byline, really really short abstract. etc. It's really tech agnostic.

Re: Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

#66

The CMS is in a renaissance period with Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal and the like falling out of favor. I believe the CMS is bifurcating into two specialized directions. Several online publishers are coming out and describing their new, home-grown custom CMS. The features are rich and provide robust, innovative tools across the long-form content lifecycle: writing, editing, and publication. There is special attention to…

Do you have any data that actually indicates a move away from off the shelf cms-es?

There is always a case for building a custom CMS and some companies go that route. That has been case since the WP/Joomla/Drupals off the world came into existence. I don't see a trend though, in fact I think all 3 of those are growing.

For some companies a custom CMS just makes the most sense. It doesn't really reflect anything on the off-the-shelf cms-es.

And static site generators are not exactly taking off like crazy either, in terms of growth.

Choice is always good though. In that respect, I agree that there is a renaissance There are lots of great ways to run a site now. There are some nice looking CMS platforms and the popular platforms continue to mature as well. It's good stuff all around.

Re: Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

#67
post #11

I was always under the impression that they're Django/Python. Can anyone confirm?

No. We use a pretty normal ("boring") Java stack with Spring, Hibernate and Jersey. Some of the older components use Struts + JSPs whereas the newer components use Backbone (and related libraries).

Which database? A JDBC one?

Re: Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

#68

The CMS is in a renaissance period with Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal and the like falling out of favor. I believe the CMS is bifurcating into two specialized directions. Several online publishers are coming out and describing their new, home-grown custom CMS. The features are rich and provide robust, innovative tools across the long-form content lifecycle: writing, editing, and publication. There is special attention to…

OS tools such as WP, Drupal, et al aren't even remotely in the same class of app as Scoop, or those built by various other online pubs (exa: Salon), nor are they "new", some have roots going back five and ten plus years in the respective org.

The conclusion is way off base and ill informed; early digital pubs recognized immediately that OS CMS systems and blogware weren't going to cut it and brewed their own tech (a few of which were subjected to attempted productization, which inevitably failed, exa: vignette storyserver), and nothing's really changed in that regard.

know your history before you declare a renaissance, mm-kay

Re: Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a writer and I think "like that". I know many other writers that do, as well. And it's not surprising, because writing itself is a technology in a traditional sense. Further, it's more "tech" oriented (in the more contemporary sense) than you give it credit for. It's very close to coding: It's structural, admits of procedure, copy reuse, partakes of historical design advancements, adapts to tech around it, etc. F…

I think you're definitely an exception. I work with large editorial staffs every single day and haven't come across a single person who I think would feel comfortable crafting a "dynamic" story that is susceptible to losing and gaining chunks of copy depending on how much space there is. It would be a total sea change for how most editorial shops operate. They are so detail oriented, and to them, every word counts an…

If it is important to the news publisher, there will be more and more writers that are capable of this every day. A great writer who is capable of writing 'dynamic' articles will stand out among his/her peers and be in demand until, over time, everybody writes that way for news publications.

...Genies do not readily recede into bottles.

Re: Scoop: A Glimpse Into the NYTimes CMS

#70
post #2

Very interesting and cool article, although I wonder what the point of this is? Just a show and tell? Doesn't seem like they're open sourcing it.

Open sourcing it is a good suggestion and one that some have made previously. Open sourcing it requires a fair amount of work to remove company-specific, internal stuff and making it easy for others to install, upgrade and maintain it on their own. That fair amount of work hasn't yet made it high on a priority list, but let us hope it will :-)
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