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Literally worse than EA

notch.net

61–70 of 141 posts

Re: Literally worse than EA

#61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it be more profitable to simply develop and sell mods rather than running servers since your costs will be lower? Unless you mean just using the mod as a key to access the server in which case you'd be better off just charging for passwords to the server because otherwise you have to worry about people using pirate copies of your mod to connect.

Most of the people running servers are doing it as a desire to be the part of the ecosystem who runs servers. They aren't interested in making money off the ecosystem as much as becoming a part of the ecosystem, and as server ops have been since the first days of IRC and the earliest dialup BBSes decades ago, there's more than a little power trip involved. If they wanted money they'd spend time on mturk and easily ma…

Do you mean the people providing servers, or the people who are operating them?

Re: Literally worse than EA

#62
As someone who actually runs a Minecraft server and has developed several mini games and around 50 plugins, I'd like to clarify a few things to people who aren't involved in Minecraft.

* Minecraft is pretty expensive to host. The top servers are paying tens of thousands a month in hosting. Only a few servers make enough to cover wages. Most just barely scrape by. DDOS protection is pretty much essential to any server over a certain size, which increases costs significantly.

* Most Minecraft servers are no longer vanilla Minecraft servers. The Minecraft server software is pretty bad in both functionality and performance. Most servers use Craftbukkit or Spigot, which has a plugin API (Spigot is a patched version of Craftbukkit with mostly performance fixes). Craftbukkit is open source, but is a legally gray area as it contains the decompiled code from the Mojang server. There is an API for writing plugins called Bukkit which is totally separate from the craftbukkit server implementation.

* The large servers have tried to work with Mojang to get a set of rules they can work with. Mojang listened to them and actually added clauses prohibiting some of the things they said they needed to even have a chance of this working for them.

* While Mojang claim their EULA never allowed servers to make money, their first one actually did. They've also granted written permission to some servers. Last year they had a panel at Minecon were top server owners actually talked about how their server makes money. Despite what their EULA says, Mojang has been basically telling servers it was fine to monetize up until now.

* Their new terms force servers to remove perks that have already been sold to players. Many server owners are objecting to this as it forces them to "steal" things that players have bought.

* Bungeecord is a proxy system that allows players to switch between multiple servers without logging out. The Minecraft clients multiplayer server list support has barely improved since Alpha. Mojang's new EULA treats a bungeecord proxy as a single server. This means that although they allow owners to charge players to access a server, it's pretty much impossible to do without inconveniencing players.

* The Minecraft network protocol is not patented. A number of open source server implementations exist which do no use any Mojang code. Since these changes have been announced these projects have become much more active with disgruntled developers starting to contribute. It is believed that the EULA cannot legally be enforced on these servers, although one Mojang developer made a statement to the contrary.

* No final draft for the new EULA has actually be made available, but a date for compliance has already been set. 1st August 2014.

* Mojang released their Realms hosting service worldwide just before making these changes, prompting many to accuse them of trying to eliminate the competition. However, they could simply stop releasing their server software if that was their intention, so most people don't believe this to be true.

Re: Literally worse than EA

#63
post #31

Oh wow. Minecraft. I have an 8yo boy, so I spend a lot more time thinking about this than I would like. I think Mojang has it's priorities slightly wrong here. At the moment much of the interesting stuff in Minecraft is done via mods. But the user experience for that is pretty close to pre-Google search: browse through random forums to find links to dodgy download sites that attempt to push malware or porn to you. Th…

I'd much rather people pay for stability. Tricking people to pay for 64 bytes of code and a new color pallet for a diamond encrusted pixel sword in order to offer stability was a mistake. Education needed to happen, this shit is hard, and it's a lot of work. When I go to a store, I don't see a sign "Pizza is free" only to walk over and find that if I want to put toppings on the pizza, well those cost $0.99 per single slice of pepperoni on the pizza. In order to get a full pizza experience, including peppers, cheese, and sauce, I'm not paying $30 for the free pizza. It's dishonest, and we're the ones allowing it to happen.

Re: Literally worse than EA

#64

"The EULA for Minecraft says you can’t make money of Minecraft. If you make mods, they have to be free." I don't understand the legal theory behind this. Is this contract law? If a programmer wrote a third-party mod without buying the software (say by reading an API description), would they still be bound to its terms? Also, does restricting modification like this infringe on "first sale" rights?

Minecraft does not have an API currently. If you are making mods you are decompiling the original Minecraft java source code, modifying it, and releasing a modified version of their original works.

Actually their EULA states that you are not allowed to redistribute Mojang's code (compiled or decompiled) in any way.

Mods are created using the decompiled client, and built against that. But when they are released, they do not contain any of Mojang's code.

Installing mods is done by copying compiled .class files into the client .jar

Re: Literally worse than EA

#65
post #62

As someone who actually runs a Minecraft server and has developed several mini games and around 50 plugins, I'd like to clarify a few things to people who aren't involved in Minecraft. * Minecraft is pretty expensive to host. The top servers are paying tens of thousands a month in hosting. Only a few servers make enough to cover wages. Most just barely scrape by. DDOS protection is pretty much essential to any server…

Can you cite the claims you make, like the original EULA, and correspondence which said it was okay to monetize gameplay? Otherwise, I have to disregard this comment. You may be right, but without those pieces of information, I have to defer to the post by the founder which could have legal ramifications if proved false.

Re: Literally worse than EA

#66

Hosting game servers is hard, expensive work. Hosting Minecraft servers is even tougher since the hardware requirements are pretty steep and the main userbase doesn't have much money to kick into the pot. Minefold was a YC company that tried to make a go of monetising Minecraft hosting in the Right Way. They were smart guys and built a great platform, but they're not around any more. I believe it's because it was jus…

In what way is it unsolved? For what type of games? In my experience, for any games that allow you to easily run your own server for you and your friends (e.g. Counter Strike), finding servers is no problem.

I ran a Counter Strike: Source and Team Fortress 2 gaming community for years and neither of the two were extremely challenging or expensive to maintain in the technical sense. The hardest part was keeping the servers populated and dealing with internal drama that occurred amongst clan members.

Re: Literally worse than EA

#67
post #17

Maybe this is a little off-topic, and I don't want to sound like an ungrateful player of minecraft. I actually really love the game and have put more hours into it than just about any other game but a few key titles like the Diablo, Elder Scrolls, and Fallout series. But, can someone explain to me how a game that has grossed roughly half a billion dollars (based on estimates I've read for all platforms) is still so f…

It is strategy, they want to use money to finance other future projects. According to one interview I have read, money from Minecraft are used to pay bills and development of other games until they luck out again and have another hit. Developing games is risky and there are no guarantees of success. So, the successful projects have to pay for unsuccessful ones.

Just to add to your last sentence, successful projects have to pay for projects not yet ready to release as well as unsuccessful ones (whether due to them flopping or lack of critical mass.)

Re: Literally worse than EA

#68
post #62

As someone who actually runs a Minecraft server and has developed several mini games and around 50 plugins, I'd like to clarify a few things to people who aren't involved in Minecraft. * Minecraft is pretty expensive to host. The top servers are paying tens of thousands a month in hosting. Only a few servers make enough to cover wages. Most just barely scrape by. DDOS protection is pretty much essential to any server…

    * Their new terms force servers to remove perks that have already been sold to players. Many server owners are objecting to this as it forces them to "steal" things that players have bought.
The servers don't have to remove the perks, they just have to give them to everyone.

What's pretty clear in all this is that Notch does not want Minecraft to become some kind of pay-to-win game (which would inevitably damage the reputation of the game). I think he is absolutely right to stand by this. He also has stated numerous times on Twitter that Mojang doesn't care about server admins getting money for the service (if anything to pay for the hosting costs), as long as any gameplay modification that is distributed is available for all players without paying.

Re: Literally worse than EA

#69
post #62

As someone who actually runs a Minecraft server and has developed several mini games and around 50 plugins, I'd like to clarify a few things to people who aren't involved in Minecraft. * Minecraft is pretty expensive to host. The top servers are paying tens of thousands a month in hosting. Only a few servers make enough to cover wages. Most just barely scrape by. DDOS protection is pretty much essential to any server…

So it’s expensive and hard. So what? Doesn’t mean scummy play to win bullshit is something to be proud of, especially when targeting children.

I mean, what Mojang now permits I consider just barely ethically acceptable. Do know that these pay to win schemes are extremely disgusting and that you are far from behaving ethically if you use them. If you can live with that …

The legal discussion is kind of boring to me in that context, since it seems so obvious that the behaviour of many server owners is so disgusting. I’m happy that Mojang is trying to crack down on that and I hope they don’t fail. Maybe they will, but that doesn’t change anything about how wrong these pay to win schemes are.

Re: Literally worse than EA

#70
post #31

Oh wow. Minecraft. I have an 8yo boy, so I spend a lot more time thinking about this than I would like. I think Mojang has it's priorities slightly wrong here. At the moment much of the interesting stuff in Minecraft is done via mods. But the user experience for that is pretty close to pre-Google search: browse through random forums to find links to dodgy download sites that attempt to push malware or porn to you. Th…

Huh?

Again, this is the misconception that game developers can only ever do one thing at a time. True for one or two person developers, not true for Mojang. They can afford lawyers. Developers will have nothing to do with the implementation of this policy. They are working on the modding API, just as before.

Also, this was triggered from the outside. Someone asked for clarification on the policy, Mojang looked over all the feedback and came back with this response. It’s purely reactive, not an initiative.

You are talking nonsense. Plausible sounding nonsense, but still nonsense.

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