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No Money, No Time

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: No Money, No Time

#71

Post by yardie »

msandford wrote: post #61
incision wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'Whereas the American one seems incapable of delivering anything with less than a 6-month waiting list..' My family was on a wait list for housing assistance from the time I was a child until I dropped out of school and started working, making us ineligible. The list is currently closed and was last open over half a decade ago, for less than two weeks - like something out of a fantasy novel. >...with an extremely bu…

The problem is that while there are a great many deserving people who wouldn't abuse the system, there are also plenty who would. Worse is that if you overhear one person on the bus (like I did when I was in college) talking about having another child so she could get a larger welfare check, it has a way of getting to you. It's an anecdote so it doesn't really count from a scientific perspective. But emotionally, tha…

I used to think similar to this, even though I was and grew up poor. But after working with a few NGOs I've found the system is designed to screen out the people that need the help. At the same time the people that know how to work the system get the most aid.

Most welfare requires that you report 0 income, so instead of searching for work working welfare becomes the job. Showing up every day to the local office, wait in line, fill in papers, come back tomorrow, and repeat.

A few years ago I had a friend quit her job as a social worker because she was expecting a baby and her company didn't provide health insurance. She was able to get Medicaid by going on unemployment as a single mother with child. Then she had to stay unemployed because the cost of daycare was more than her income. Social welfare in the US is so screwed up because you have to be backed into a corner to get it and then have to stay there because your time becomes devoted to keeping track of all the paperwork.

Re: No Money, No Time

#72

Post by epaladin »

pjmorris wrote: post #43
beat wrote: post #11

The thing that frustrates me the most about this situation is the waste of human capital this represents for society. Now, I'm a firm believer that society is advanced mostly by a small minority of highly talented individuals - the intelligent, creative, charismatic, and hardworking few change the game for everyone else. Now, what happens when those rare talents are born into the cycle of poverty? What lessons do the…

I can relate. Dad died when I was 13, Mom and 3 kids moved to a single-wide in rural Florida. I was buried in books and calculators from the time I could walk to the library, but I had no positive role models. I had no idea of the value or importance of the PSAT and SAT, I had no idea what I would do once I graduated from High School. I lucked into the local community college offering scholarships for the top of the…

"who by both trade and passion wants to give kids a vision for what they could have and don't see"

There's definitely a huge need for this- but I think for everyone, not necessarily just those in poverty. From my middle class home town, most people I was familiar with from elementary school seem to be working at restaurants and the like. I could have definitely used a mentor to help me see the possibilities that my parents weren't familiar with. Now that I'm finally developing the self-awareness necessary to really go somewhere (hopefully) I've tried to think on how to help kids realize their potential, but in such a way as to be scalable. While maybe apps could help with self-esteem, it's probably not possible at this point to replace the knowledge and experience of a good mentor with a standalone information system.

I know the frustration I've experienced, so I can only imagine what it's got to be like coming from less- props to you for making it.

Re: No Money, No Time

#73

Post by GotAnyMegadeth »

dannypgh wrote: post #67
prawn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're talking about advancing society, not replacing a t-shirt. You're having a separate discussion.

How "advanced" is a society without shirts? I tend to think the idea that some people "advance society" is bull. Society advances as a whole or not at all.

I agree that society advances itself together, however I don't think that shirts are necessary for a society to be considered "Advanced".

Re: No Money, No Time

#74

Post by antisocial »

SilasX wrote: post #53
sliverstorm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You agree with the conclusion but are upset that an example which has been simplified to make a point isn't as nebulous as real life?

You're right -- if that were the issue, it would be a bad objection; let me try again. The problem is that in real life, most such cases (of buying the more expensive item) don't result in a pure savings, but rather, leave you better off in some ways and worse off in others. The cheaper shoes, IOW, will not actually be so bad that you have to replace them entirely, and you will in fact end up with with more liquid sa…

My most recent purchase is a 900$ Bosch dishwasher that is saving me so much time (and time is money) and saving money indirectly because I am cooking more often at home as I don't find washing dishes to be taxing any more. Home cooked, all natural food is healthy in the long run. The sink is empty and it makes me feel less cluttered and more efficient. So it is a chain reaction and the effects are compounded. One thing leads to another. There is a 10000$ difference between a 500$ dishwasher and a 900$ dishwasher.

Re: No Money, No Time

#75

Post by antisocial »

Mz wrote: post #31

I just wish that articles like this focused more on how to solve it. It's nice that it acknowledges the problem. But that is not enough. The end of the piece gives a small snippet of examples of what works. How do we start promoting things that do work? That really work? I think that does not get done in part because many people really do not want "the poor" to solve their problems. I do not understand why that is bu…

Hostile attitude towards poor? I don't think so. Most of us are just busy trying to make a living/career, raise a family etc. There is not enough free time to go around. And whatever free time that is left is sucked up by TV/internet.

Re: No Money, No Time

#77

Post by incision »

yardie wrote: post #71
msandford wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that while there are a great many deserving people who wouldn't abuse the system, there are also plenty who would. Worse is that if you overhear one person on the bus (like I did when I was in college) talking about having another child so she could get a larger welfare check, it has a way of getting to you. It's an anecdote so it doesn't really count from a scientific perspective. But emotionally, tha…

I used to think similar to this, even though I was and grew up poor. But after working with a few NGOs I've found the system is designed to screen out the people that need the help. At the same time the people that know how to work the system get the most aid. Most welfare requires that you report 0 income, so instead of searching for work working welfare becomes the job. Showing up every day to the local office, wai…

>'...the cost of daycare was more than her income.'

Covering the gap when coming off of assistance is a major problem.

The sharp cutoffs and various criteria for violations turn leaving assistance into a leap of faith.

A small raise becomes a big problem when the increase adds up to far less than the food benefit you'll lose all at once for exceeding the income limit. Likewise, you can't build a basic emergency fund when two thousand dollars in the bank will kill your SSI.

Re: No Money, No Time

#78

Post by incision »

msandford wrote: post #61
incision wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'Whereas the American one seems incapable of delivering anything with less than a 6-month waiting list..' My family was on a wait list for housing assistance from the time I was a child until I dropped out of school and started working, making us ineligible. The list is currently closed and was last open over half a decade ago, for less than two weeks - like something out of a fantasy novel. >...with an extremely bu…

The problem is that while there are a great many deserving people who wouldn't abuse the system, there are also plenty who would. Worse is that if you overhear one person on the bus (like I did when I was in college) talking about having another child so she could get a larger welfare check, it has a way of getting to you. It's an anecdote so it doesn't really count from a scientific perspective. But emotionally, tha…

>'But it's hard to use your brain rather than react to your emotions when this kind of thing gets written up.'

No doubt.

I've seen more than a few otherwise measured people lose it when it comes to this topic.

It's fascinating that the same people who seemingly recognize the folly of hasty generalizations about everything from brands to race or religion will vehemently defend the same with regard to income.

I wonder if it's simply lack of exposure?

Where I grew up around DC there's certainly far less personal interaction across classes than there is among different ethnicities, faiths or automobiles.

If someone's primary exposure to an entire class of people happens through the 'news' with a peppering of half heard conversations in the few instances of mixing (public transit, DMV, sometimes grade school) it's easy to see how they could end up with strongly felt yet thinly supported views.

Re: No Money, No Time

#79

Post by msandford »

tobr wrote: post #69
msandford wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that while there are a great many deserving people who wouldn't abuse the system, there are also plenty who would. Worse is that if you overhear one person on the bus (like I did when I was in college) talking about having another child so she could get a larger welfare check, it has a way of getting to you. It's an anecdote so it doesn't really count from a scientific perspective. But emotionally, tha…

> Here I am working hard end paying my taxes so that (in a very, very small way $ or % wise) I'm empowering someone else to just sit around and get paid to do nothing but pop out babies and raise them poorly. Personally, what causes me to feel moral outrage is when I encounter this sort of derogatory statements, aimed at the poor. Based on something once overheard on a bus, nonetheless. The fact that there is a tiny…

>> Here I am working hard end paying my taxes so that (in a very, very small way $ or % wise) I'm empowering someone else to just sit around and get paid to do nothing but pop out babies and raise them poorly.

>Personally, what causes me to feel moral outrage is when I encounter this sort of derogatory statements, aimed at the poor. Based on something once overheard on a bus, nonetheless.

The idea that I overheard it on a bus makes it less credible doesn't really hold water in my mind. It was in an informal setting and thus more likely to be true. And if someone's motivation to have another child is to collect more welfare I'm not so convinced that it's an entirely unreasonable assumption that they're not going to do the best job raising them. If this mother couldn't think through the thoughts necessary to realize that welfare shouldn't be a system that you milk for all it's worth and instead is a system designed to help you get back on your feet (at least ostensibly) then I'm not so confident she's going to do a stellar job of everything else. She might very well teach them through actions if not words, that going on welfare is preferable to real work. That's a potent recipe for dependency.

>The fact that there is a tiny percentage abusing the help is a very poor excuse for not giving help to the much, much larger percentage of people who are deeply, genuinely in need of it.

That's a big fat [citation needed]. Furthermore if you assume that those who are abusing the system know the right things to say when they're interviewed or to put down on the forms I can't really figure out how you could reasonably determine the percentage of people abusing the system. Hire a million PIs to follow folks around? It's not as though the people fill out forms and check the box that says "I am lying about my need" which first off, isn't there and second would obviously disqualify them.

Furthermore if you look at this comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7903788) it reinforces the notion that abuse is rampant.

Finally I think it's incredibly offensive that you assume you know how I feel about the rich based on what I've said about SOME poor folks who are abusing welfare. You might THINK you know, but that does not translate into actual knowledge.

In reality I hate all rent-seekers rich and poor alike. If you want an income you should have to work for it like everyone else. I find the idea that someone can eat, sleep and live off the hard work of others morally outrageous. It doesn't matter to me the amount of ill-gotten gains that allows people to squander their lives without doing anything useful for society.

Re: No Money, No Time

#80

Post by billmalarky »

Mz wrote: post #31

I just wish that articles like this focused more on how to solve it. It's nice that it acknowledges the problem. But that is not enough. The end of the piece gives a small snippet of examples of what works. How do we start promoting things that do work? That really work? I think that does not get done in part because many people really do not want "the poor" to solve their problems. I do not understand why that is bu…

I was under the impression that basic income was designed to give the poor the base they need to relieve the pressures of being poor enough that they could actually focus on getting a leg up instead of devoting all of their resources to simply surviving week to week.
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