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No Money, No Time

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: No Money, No Time

#51

Post by alexqgb »

jonny_eh wrote: post #48
alexqgb wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't kid yourself. There's a wide gulf between a worldview based on a few anecdotal successes and the more realistic picture emerging from a flood of statistics, which not only show the rarity of mobility, but indicate that it's declining - esp. for those unfortunate enough to be born at the bottom. Yes, people can win Olympic Gold (we're not competing against robots yet), but very few will and those who do will hav…

The number of people that can win an Olympic Gold is arbitrarily fixed. The number of people that can become financially successful isn't.

And yet, for the last 30 years, the number of those who are successful relative to the rest of the population has suffered sharp decline.

Do you honestly not know this? Or are you simply the sort of person who just doesn't mind?

Re: No Money, No Time

#52

Post by prawn »

Mz wrote: post #31

I just wish that articles like this focused more on how to solve it. It's nice that it acknowledges the problem. But that is not enough. The end of the piece gives a small snippet of examples of what works. How do we start promoting things that do work? That really work? I think that does not get done in part because many people really do not want "the poor" to solve their problems. I do not understand why that is bu…

I don't think it's that people don't want "the poor" to solve their problems, but there isn't an immediate benefit for others to solve that problem for them. Many have their own problems (even if they aren't as series as those faced by others).

Re: No Money, No Time

#53

Post by SilasX »

sliverstorm wrote: post #44
SilasX wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote always bothers me, because most long-term savings like that aren't nearly so clear in numerical terms.

You agree with the conclusion but are upset that an example which has been simplified to make a point isn't as nebulous as real life?

You're right -- if that were the issue, it would be a bad objection; let me try again.

The problem is that in real life, most such cases (of buying the more expensive item) don't result in a pure savings, but rather, leave you better off in some ways and worse off in others. The cheaper shoes, IOW, will not actually be so bad that you have to replace them entirely, and you will in fact end up with with more liquid savings. The temporary discomfort and greater savings are much harder to compare to the alternative than the example suggests, so wealthier people do not always have some obvious choice that leaves them better off in every way.

So, on top of that, it's not an issue that is fixable simply by pointing this out to the poorer person and loaning them the money.

Re: No Money, No Time

#54

Post by [deleted] »

zorpner wrote: post #7
yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

Strange that little correlation data is provided. Microdata is available from the BLS on what people spend time on, sliced by income and poverty. Checking whether poverty or low income are correlated with having little time should be a fairly straightforward python/pandas job. It seems unlikely that the money-poor are also time-poor (given that the main cause of money-poverty is not working), but it's straightforward…

The impoverished, at least in America, work more jobs/person than the non-impoverished.

[deleted]

Re: No Money, No Time

#55

Post by logicchains »

alexqgb wrote: post #51
jonny_eh wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of people that can win an Olympic Gold is arbitrarily fixed. The number of people that can become financially successful isn't.

And yet, for the last 30 years, the number of those who are successful relative to the rest of the population has suffered sharp decline. Do you honestly not know this? Or are you simply the sort of person who just doesn't mind?

Financially successful doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as being financially "successful relative to the rest of the population", for what it's worth.

Re: No Money, No Time

#56

Post by skkbits »

pjmorris wrote: post #43
beat wrote: post #11

The thing that frustrates me the most about this situation is the waste of human capital this represents for society. Now, I'm a firm believer that society is advanced mostly by a small minority of highly talented individuals - the intelligent, creative, charismatic, and hardworking few change the game for everyone else. Now, what happens when those rare talents are born into the cycle of poverty? What lessons do the…

I can relate. Dad died when I was 13, Mom and 3 kids moved to a single-wide in rural Florida. I was buried in books and calculators from the time I could walk to the library, but I had no positive role models. I had no idea of the value or importance of the PSAT and SAT, I had no idea what I would do once I graduated from High School. I lucked into the local community college offering scholarships for the top of the…

wow man ! that's an amazing story you got there.

Re: No Money, No Time

#57

Post by droopyEyelids »

javajosh wrote: post #37

We are hackers, and for those of us with whom this article resonates, we can connect those with time but little money (e.g. teenagers looking for charities to contribute to) with the poor through technology. The teens could help with chores, maintenance, errands, filling out forms. Taking some of the time-pressure off might help them to get out of the cycle. I'm willing to build it if you are. Contact me.

In my experience, in everything from going out to lunch to planning a camping trip to having a party to asking someone out to doing any work-- you have to do it, and yes let other people know you're doing it, but you have to be doing it regardless.

Things generally don't work if you say "I'll do it if you agree to do it too."

Re: No Money, No Time

#58

Post by yummyfajitas »

nilkn wrote: post #4
yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

Strange that little correlation data is provided. Microdata is available from the BLS on what people spend time on, sliced by income and poverty. Checking whether poverty or low income are correlated with having little time should be a fairly straightforward python/pandas job. It seems unlikely that the money-poor are also time-poor (given that the main cause of money-poverty is not working), but it's straightforward…

> given that the main cause of money-poverty is not working Is that really true? I'm not sure if my girlfriend's family qualifies as truly poor, but they certainly don't have much money. Her dad has two jobs--line cook and hotel janitor--and her mom is also a line cook. They frequently have to go to check cashing places, they have only one car so her mom relies on taking the bus to work (which takes over an hour each…

As of a few years ago, 36% of poor adults work at least half the year and 25% work full time. Original sources cited here:

http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2011/why_the_poor_dont_wor...

You could be right that transit takes up a lot of time, but why rely on anecdote? Stats are available. I linked to them. And if it wasn't 1:30AM (in India) when I posted that, I'd probably have munged them myself.

Re: No Money, No Time

#59

Post by yummyfajitas »

alexqgb wrote: post #51
jonny_eh wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of people that can win an Olympic Gold is arbitrarily fixed. The number of people that can become financially successful isn't.

And yet, for the last 30 years, the number of those who are successful relative to the rest of the population has suffered sharp decline. Do you honestly not know this? Or are you simply the sort of person who just doesn't mind?

Relative mobility has remained flat and absolute mobility has increased.

http://obs.rc.fas.harvard.edu/chetty/mobility_trends.pdf

Re: No Money, No Time

#60

Post by r0s »

Meekro wrote: post #24
beat wrote: post #11

The thing that frustrates me the most about this situation is the waste of human capital this represents for society. Now, I'm a firm believer that society is advanced mostly by a small minority of highly talented individuals - the intelligent, creative, charismatic, and hardworking few change the game for everyone else. Now, what happens when those rare talents are born into the cycle of poverty? What lessons do the…

The fact that people like you can escape is very encouraging: it means we still have class mobility -- if you've got the skills and work ethic, you can be born into the lower class and quickly rise above that.

Skills and work ethic are learned behaviors. You're technically correct that those things can help you rise above, but you're missing the point that environment is the key factor.
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