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Founder Depression

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Founder Depression

#181

Post by [deleted] »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #126
logicallee wrote: post #55

You can't afford to follow this advice. Saying you're crushing it is part of your 24/7 job description. There is a story of the founder who had just put a round together with a VC. Then, privately, the founder confided to a mutual friend, over dinner, about some of the difficulties. Result? The friend told the VC, the VC pulled out, and cited this conversation, saying that it was because his mutual friend said the co…

1) plural of anecdote is not data 2) that VC was probably looking for an excuse to pull out, would have pulled out anyway for some other bullshit reason

[deleted]

Re: Founder Depression

#182

Post by paul »

EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

It's disappointing to see this as the top comment, as it fundamentally misunderstands and misrepresents the point of Sam's post.

Running a startup is a very difficult and stressful activity, especially when things are not going well. The message is not, "get your shit together and succeed." The message is to talk to someone when things are difficult, because loneliness will only make it worse. This is true for any major stressor, whether business, health, or relationship, and the comments here from actual founders all reflect the value of this advice.

Re: Founder Depression

#183

Post by marvin »

paul wrote: post #182
EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

It's disappointing to see this as the top comment, as it fundamentally misunderstands and misrepresents the point of Sam's post. Running a startup is a very difficult and stressful activity, especially when things are not going well. The message is not, "get your shit together and succeed." The message is to talk to someone when things are difficult, because loneliness will only make it worse. This is true for any ma…

It's possible to do both, though. As I pointed out elsewhere in this thead, Sam's post is very helpful and to the point, but there is a lot of undiagnosed psychiatric illness in the startup world. Much of it largely self-inflicted by excessive pressure, lack of sleep and long hours. This is a point which is willfully ignored in this forum, so it's very worthy of being discussed.

Re: Founder Depression

#184

Post by BrandonMarc »

Noxchi wrote: post #142
EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

Everything we do in life is to feel a certain way. Anything with a brain is driven to acquire certain feelings and move away from others. And all feelings have to do with the future. That is, feelings are either 1. a prediction of what you believe will happen in the future. For example, happiness is the belief that something good will happen in the future. 2. a feeling that you should feel in the future when you come…

I like what you did there ... but when the wall is finished, if there isn't another to build, then there are no more bricks to lay. Or is that not a problem, since the new cause of joy (brick-laying, not wall completion) is one which was continuous over an extended time?

Re: Founder Depression

#185

Post by cviedmai »

shantanubala wrote: post #2

If anyone feels like they need someone to talk to, send me an email (in my profile). If you're in San Francisco, we can also get coffee.

Same in Madrid. Twice entrepreneur. Not an expert but I know what it is like. Coffee or a beer, whatever is good.

Re: Founder Depression

#186

Post by WorldWideWayne »

EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

I think that the answer is to learn how to enjoy the work for itself, not for the goal that it achieves. It's very old and very good advice.

Re: Founder Depression

#187

Post by petercooper »

Noxchi wrote: post #142
EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

Everything we do in life is to feel a certain way. Anything with a brain is driven to acquire certain feelings and move away from others. And all feelings have to do with the future. That is, feelings are either 1. a prediction of what you believe will happen in the future. For example, happiness is the belief that something good will happen in the future. 2. a feeling that you should feel in the future when you come…

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, but it's interesting to see how different people get different things out of Reddit. Reddit (and to a similar extent, YouTube) makes me laugh my ass off and see different perspectives every single day that it absolutely improves my state of mind with no real negatives (although I don't generally comment or get into long threads when I do) :-) Any day with a few bouts of hard laughter is a good one by me, despite anything else that happens.

Re: Founder Depression

#188

Post by nhangen »

EvanMiller wrote: post #87

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else.…

I disagree. Your psychological understanding has a long way to go.

In fact, this sounds like someone rationalizing a lack of achievement rather than trying to understand the true motivations of an achievement oriented person.

The path is not masochistic or narcissistic. In fact, I take offense to that.

The path is what separates the wheat from the chaff. It is the price for admission...table stakes.

Achievement oriented people don't suffer depression because of regret, they suffer depression because that too is a requirement for playing the game. I can only speak for myself, but by the time I have achieved something I wanted, I'm already thinking about the next goal. When I finally reach the first goal, I have little time to celebrate, but that's OK because it's not the goal that rewards us, but the path to achieving it.

The difference between being depressed by it and not being depressed by it is realizing that one cannot continually achieve without being dissatisfied. The two go hand in hand. Once I realized that, everything changed.

That said, there is some insight buried within your conclusion. Depression reaches its peak when a person defines themselves by their work and/or achievements. The best way to overcome that is to become a whole person. My personal approach is to play sports, go running, practice hobbies, and spend time with my family.

Of course, none of this really helps when things are going poorly or you are failing. In those times, the only remedy is to come to terms with the fact that you could lose it all, and let's face it - that's a reality that none of us want to accept until it happens, and even then we'll battle it.

I've been to that point twice, and each time sucked worse than that last. However, it's the only fuel I need to prevent myself from allowing it to happen again.

So to get back to Sam's point and give it the attention it deserves - yes, talking to someone will help, but so too will the realization that it's never over. It sounds cliche, but Lombardi was right. "It's not whether you got knocked down, it's whether you get back up" that counts. Define yourself as a fighter, not by a single fight.

Re: Founder Depression

#189

Post by iaskwhy »

marincounty wrote: post #176
niels_olson wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not spot on. Depression is depression. And the answer is to talk to somebody. That's actually the cold hard evidence-based answer. Talk. To somebody.

I've thought a lot about depression over the years. I also talked to a Psychiatrist about my melancholy for over 20 years. He has told me there are basically three differnt types of depression; situational(your life sucks), dysthymia(low level depression, that seems to linger), clinical depression(you want to end it all). Supposedly, drugs are effective in clinical depression--I don't think I have been that depressed…

I'm sorry about your experience and hope you keep improving your situation. I do have one question: you say you went from someone who was quite ok to someone who was having a hard time and then you say you know things will get better with age; how do you make sense of this? I'm asking because some people do get more anxious with age so my understanding is things tend to get worse with age but, on a somewhat positive note, you will eventually learn how to deal with it with age as well. So, given you can only work on one of the sides, the end net result can be positive.

What does suck though is you migth spend a big part of your life fighting against yourself. That's something I still have a hard time thinking about, it's hard to accept it.

Re: Founder Depression

#190

Post by paul »

marvin wrote: post #183
paul wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disappointing to see this as the top comment, as it fundamentally misunderstands and misrepresents the point of Sam's post. Running a startup is a very difficult and stressful activity, especially when things are not going well. The message is not, "get your shit together and succeed." The message is to talk to someone when things are difficult, because loneliness will only make it worse. This is true for any ma…

It's possible to do both, though. As I pointed out elsewhere in this thead, Sam's post is very helpful and to the point, but there is a lot of undiagnosed psychiatric illness in the startup world. Much of it largely self-inflicted by excessive pressure, lack of sleep and long hours. This is a point which is willfully ignored in this forum, so it's very worthy of being discussed.

I agree with that. There's too much macho, "look at me work 24/7 and never sleep" nonsense in the startup world, and it's bad for everyone.
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