Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

phenomena.nationalgeographic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 94 posts

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#81

Post by mcv »

stiff wrote: post #63

I do not want to contradict the research by this, but our heads certainly aren't all too well adapted to punching. The brain is to a large extent floating quite freely in the cerebrospinal fluid in the skull, and when the head is punched it experiences an effect similar to a passenger in a suddenly breaking car - it is smashed against the skull as a result of inertia, often resulting in permanent brain trauma: http:/…

The head of Australopithecus had quite a different shape than ours, though. Not nearly as much brain, and a lot more bone.

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#82

Post by aResponder52 »

1stop wrote: post #73
gadders wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is still possible to knock someone out with a slap. Some bouncers in the UK recommend it as a) it doesn't hurt your hand so much and b) telling the police you just slapped someone doesn't sound so bad. Plenty of videos on youtube of people being knocked out with a slap.

being knocked out is related to the brain hitting the walls of the skull, it has very little to do with what caused that. Slap, Fist, head-butt, concrete, car crash etc. But I was responding to the claim slapping is equivalent to punching.

Depends on the goal. You're right about it being less likely to break a bone (on the target) or cause bleeding (again, on the target), but a solid slap will cause similar secondary impacts (brain hitting the skull)

I'll take a KO after some body shots and two working hands over a bloodied up opponent and a broken hand. There are much better tools to use against a skull, like elbows (less delicate than hands), but you need to account for range and movement.

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#83

Post by aResponder52 »

verilygreen wrote: post #64
aResponder52 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. Two guys who just want to fight are probably going to have a shoving match which will end when one gets pinned and the other guy gets pulled off. Two groups of guys who have some need to fight over are more likely to use tools.

If two people are having a shoving match, they don't really want to fight. A fight implies you want to hurt the other person, not escalate the situation until one of you gathers the courage to strike the other.

True. It only takes one person to turn a fist fight into a shoving match. Grab on, and keep moving.

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#84

Post by aResponder52 »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #19
baddox wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boxing was developed specifically to get around the many problems with punching: protecting the hands from being broken, and developing defensive strategies to avoid blows from even padded fists. Perhaps that's true, but isn't it also true that fisticuffs were a "natural" way for impromptu humans fights? I highly doubt that boxing was the first invention of fighting by standing up and punching the other person. It…

Yes, fisticuffs were common for impromptu human fights. But the stuff with evolutionary implications usually resulted from ambushes: People hiding in the bushes with sticks and stones, waiting for one and his buddies to walk by. Or just hitting him over the head with a rock while he slept. Forager societies more closely resemble middle school than modern life. In modern life, you can get in a fight at the bar and not…

You guys know that the type of fight that goes like "guys get angry, guys punch each other a few times" aren't always the same as "guys get angry, one guy kills the other"?

I'm not one for hypothesizing based on hunches that look evolutionarily plausible, but, given that for a long time humans lived to 20, 25 years old, consider the types of fights teenagers and kids get into these days. A few punches, somebody (or both people) loses with some bruises, nobody dies, nobody gets seriously hurt.

We're comparing those types of fights with murders here. Apples to oranges.

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#85

Post by zarify »

aResponder52 wrote: post #52
zarify wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And part of that is not attacking targets where you're likely to significantly injure yourself as well as your opponent. There's a lot to be said for not punching someone in the jaw.

and that part about the right way to hit different parts of the body. a slap is almost as hard, and won't hurt the slapper.

There are completely different mechanics in a slap though. With a punch you have different delivery options (looping vs linear vs uppercut etc) all of which affect the way in which the force is generated. With a slap you're pretty limited.

That said, getting slapped has a psychological effect you don't get from a punch, which can be exactly what you want.

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#86

Post by zarify »

gamegoblin wrote: post #59
baddox wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everything scales the same. I suspect that heavyweight boxers, for example, can hurt each other a lot more than featherweight boxers.

This is actually why I much prefer watching lower weight MMA fights to the bigger guys. The fights tend to go on longer and are more dynamic. With the bigger guys, one solid punch to the head and it's often game over. http://fightnomics.com/blog/ufc-finishes-by-weight-class-201...

Interesting stats. I'm not sure it completely explains the higher weight divisions though, since if you look at the rate at which the heavier fighters get tired and start lowering their guard, it's much higher than in the lower weight divisions, leaving them more susceptible to the KO/TKO.

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#87

Post by 1stop »

aResponder52 wrote: post #82
1stop wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

being knocked out is related to the brain hitting the walls of the skull, it has very little to do with what caused that. Slap, Fist, head-butt, concrete, car crash etc. But I was responding to the claim slapping is equivalent to punching.

Depends on the goal. You're right about it being less likely to break a bone (on the target) or cause bleeding (again, on the target), but a solid slap will cause similar secondary impacts (brain hitting the skull) I'll take a KO after some body shots and two working hands over a bloodied up opponent and a broken hand. There are much better tools to use against a skull, like elbows (less delicate than hands), but you…

You are arguing hypothetical outcomes, I'm arguing applied force.

We are kind of talking past each other.

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#88

Post by aResponder52 »

1stop wrote: post #87
aResponder52 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the goal. You're right about it being less likely to break a bone (on the target) or cause bleeding (again, on the target), but a solid slap will cause similar secondary impacts (brain hitting the skull) I'll take a KO after some body shots and two working hands over a bloodied up opponent and a broken hand. There are much better tools to use against a skull, like elbows (less delicate than hands), but you…

You are arguing hypothetical outcomes, I'm arguing applied force. We are kind of talking past each other.

No sir. Been slapped, been punched, and done both. I'm talking anecdotal evidence, you're talking engineering.

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#89

Post by aResponder52 »

1stop wrote: post #87
aResponder52 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the goal. You're right about it being less likely to break a bone (on the target) or cause bleeding (again, on the target), but a solid slap will cause similar secondary impacts (brain hitting the skull) I'll take a KO after some body shots and two working hands over a bloodied up opponent and a broken hand. There are much better tools to use against a skull, like elbows (less delicate than hands), but you…

You are arguing hypothetical outcomes, I'm arguing applied force. We are kind of talking past each other.

Just so we're talking about the same kind of slap. If I had to guess, and I can only guess at this point, you're thinking... like... a slap, a swing with an arm.

I'm talking more like an open handed punch, complete with torso rotation and a pivot. Like a hook, just no fist.

oh, oh, got another one.

Look into the impulse of the strike, and the pressure area. Here, you're going to see a big difference, in favor of your position.

You'll have the same amount of force, probably with a significant increase in the speed that force transmits into the struck area. You're right. Past a certain point, though, someone doesn't get /more/ unconscious.

And, to anticipate your possible response, yes, they can end up /more/ unconscious to the point of death, but, cement does a much better job of that than any human body part.

Re: Our Skulls Didn’t Evolve to be Punched

#90

Post by monochr »

Peaker wrote: post #76
monochr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes think even most biologists don't understand how evolution works. Especially when I read about people taking the idea of spandrels seriously. Legs didn't evolve "for" walking, ancestors with leg like appendages survived better than those who didn't have them in the Savannah. It didn't matter if they did that by walking, swimming, running or kicking threats and opportunities as they came along. The same is…

Saying that "legs evolved for walking" is a completely legitimate statement. Something can be said to have evolved for a purpose -- as a short-hand for saying that random changes that helped that purpose increased fitness and were selected for by natural selection.

If legs evolved for walking why are they so useful for swimming?

There is a set of genes that encodes for the behavior of walking or allows us to learn it and a whole other host of adaptations from our vestibular system to the angle at which our neck connects to our skull that taken together as a whole are adaptations for walking.

Each on its own has many, many other uses that have nothing to do with walking and provide benefits that have nothing to do with walking. So no, legs didn't evolve for anything. But in combination with a lot of other adaptations they make walking easier than would be the case without them.

Post reply on HN