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It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

hackingdistributed.com

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Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#81
post #45
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the bitcoin wiki: An attacker that controls more than 50% of the network's computing power can, for the time that he is in control, exclude and modify the ordering of transactions. This allows him to: Reverse transactions that he sends while he's in control. This has the potential to double-spend transactions that previously had already been seen in the block chain. Prevent some or all transactions from gaining…

What does "in control" mean in this sense? Is that an equivalent expression to "greater than 50%"? Also the "Some or all" doesn't seem very specific. What is the factor that makes some become all?

I believe the intention in the phrasing is that they could selectively or universally exercise that action. Not that there is some spectrum of control.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#82
Take a deep breath. Stop hyperventilating. Bitcoin has died a violent, crashy, gory death dozens of times at this point.

It's in Bitcoin community's, and GHash's, economic interest that no miner exceeds 50%. That's all you need to know to know that this is just another exasperated hand-wringer proclaiming the premature death of BitCoin.

BitCoin, RIP 2008 - 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, ?

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#83
post #7
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this is true, regardless of how large Bitcoin grows to be. If a significant enough problem were discovered, wouldn't it be in everyone's best interest to protect the value of their wallets by accepting a forked blockchain?

Wouldn't GHash be able to pivot their existing mining power to take 51% of that new blockchain?

The proposed change would allow any GHash member to essentially steal mining profits from GHash (by taking the full reward for any blocks found, while still sharing in the reward for blocks found by other members). Since some participants will certainly selfishly take advantage of this opportunity, there would be a disincentive for honest members to belong to the pool, and it would therefore quickly lose its dominance.

Edit: And more generally, for the same reason, pools of this sort should cease to exist.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#84
post #82

Take a deep breath. Stop hyperventilating. Bitcoin has died a violent, crashy, gory death dozens of times at this point. It's in Bitcoin community's, and GHash's, economic interest that no miner exceeds 50%. That's all you need to know to know that this is just another exasperated hand-wringer proclaiming the premature death of BitCoin. BitCoin, RIP 2008 - 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, ?

>It's in Bitcoin community's, and GHash's, economic interest that no miner exceeds 50%.

Are Bitcoin community's interests and individual miners' interests aligned? I understand why the bitcoin community wouldn't want a mining pool with more than 50% of the share, but why should "selfish" individual miners care?

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#85
Why would GHash ever want to attack the platform from which it profits and from which it will likely continue to profit, as a leading transaction processor, for many years to come? Should they be silly enough to attempt something nefarious, miners would quickly abandon them, and their business would collapse overnight.

Every major participant in the Bitcoin network, including GHash, has a vested interest in maintaining the network's integrity. Not only that: given Bitcoin's increased mainstream acceptance, it's in the best interest of every major participant to maintain a good reputation.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#86
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument in that counterpoint seems to be as follows: 1. Assume that selfish mining doesn't work. 2. Because selfish mining doesn't work there will be fair weather miners who will only mine on whichever chain is furthest ahead, defaulting to the public chain in the case of a tie. 3. Since the selfish mining pool won't be ahead all the time nobody will mine for it. 4. Therefore selfish mining doesn't work. It's no…

I think that the "selfish mining" in your first point isn't truly selfish mining. The idea is that the particular method of selfish mining being discussed would be defeated by a truly selfish mining method. No matter what you want to act selfishly and the debate is whether or not their is an optimal selfish strategy that is bad for the overall bitcoin infrastructure. Since little to no incentive exists to stick with…

That's a valid point, but not at all what I got out of the argument. I picked up primarily on the specific counter-strategy.

It's certainly true that selfish mining strategy A which gave a 5% increase in results would lose out to another selfish mining strategy B which gave 10% increases in results. However that's not an argument that strategy A doesn't break the system, merely that the optimal selfish strategy breaks the system at least badly as strategy A.

Now it is possible that there isn't a stable strategy to use. If we supposed for the purposes of argument that the fair weather strategy was more profitable than the selfish strategy described in the first article you posted, then it would seem that the optimal strategy would oscillate. As more people participate in a selfish pool consistently the more profitable it is to be a fair weather miner. However, supposing that leads to a dissolution of the selfish pool all those fair weather miners turn honest. Against honest miners, however, the selfish strategy is proven to be more profitable. And so you'd see an oscillation where people constantly shift between being honest, selfish and fair weather.

Of course, if the long run gains keeping up on this strategy treadmill is less than simply sticking to the selfish strategy through thick and thin, then perhaps the fair weather strategy isn't better in reality.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#87
post #84
post #82

Take a deep breath. Stop hyperventilating. Bitcoin has died a violent, crashy, gory death dozens of times at this point. It's in Bitcoin community's, and GHash's, economic interest that no miner exceeds 50%. That's all you need to know to know that this is just another exasperated hand-wringer proclaiming the premature death of BitCoin. BitCoin, RIP 2008 - 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, ?

>It's in Bitcoin community's, and GHash's, economic interest that no miner exceeds 50%. Are Bitcoin community's interests and individual miners' interests aligned? I understand why the bitcoin community wouldn't want a mining pool with more than 50% of the share, but why should "selfish" individual miners care?

Miners occupy a powerful and yet somewhat isolated portion of rapidly evolving bitcoin ecosystem.

For many people in the Bitcoin ecosystem, making the technology successful is about more than personal enrichment. A lot of folks see Bitcoin specifically (because of its present success) holding the potential for big changes in a shorter period of time.

The people I've spoken with don't mince words: in general serious miners compete against others to make money, not societal change.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#88
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice ad hominems you've got there. >In fact, the paper just formalized some concerns discussed in the mining community for years. This is false. Discussed here: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/09/no-you-dint/ >the "Bitcoin lunatic fringe" this author mocks has been right about the pool(s) having such power refraining from destructive (and self-bankrupting) next steps. No. The Bitcoin lunatic fringe was adamant…

I don't disagree with you, but just FYI, 'ad hominem' has a pretty specific meaning and I don't think it applies in this case. Simply calling someone 'panic-prone' isn't in itself ad hominem. If the argument were that because the author is panic-prone he cannot possibly be right, then it would be ad hominem. But if there isn't an explicit causality implied (i.e. being panic-prone makes you wrong), it's more just name…

In particular, if emin-gun-sirer had gotten his 2013-Nov-03 prediction right, and that was a good time to sell your Bitcoins, don't you think he'd be shouting it from the rooftops, ever since?

He took a gamble: that the bold tweeted prediction would increase attention for his paper (which it did), and then come true, improving his credibility about such matters (which it didn't).

He's now saying "I told you so", literally, in a gambit for more credibility – but eliding mention of his prior bad predictions. (In addition to the "good time to sell" prediction, I would point out that (a) orphan rates since his paper was published have not shown the predicted wide self-interested adoption of "selfish mining"; (b) the pool that's achieved 51% does not appear to have used "selfish mining" to get there - just the same economies-of-scale and small-miner-superstitions that have been known threats since the beginning of pooled-mining. In other words, even if this is a disaster, it's not the same one, by the same path, as he predicted – but an older potential doom, prophesied by others long before his work.)

When facing such a claim of earned authority, it's entirely appropriate, and not at all ad hominem, to highlight the full record. To "shout from the rooftops" exactly the same early calls he himself would be bragging about – if he'd been right.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#89
post #85

Why would GHash ever want to attack the platform from which it profits and from which it will likely continue to profit, as a leading transaction processor, for many years to come? Should they be silly enough to attempt something nefarious, miners would quickly abandon them, and their business would collapse overnight. Every major participant in the Bitcoin network, including GHash, has a vested interest in maintaini…

Makes logical sense, unfortunately we've seen examples in the past of this logic not being adhered to. Take the poker site "Ultimate Bet", when cheating was suspected the line of reasoning against it (and the strongest line of reasoning at that)was "Why would they cheat when they are running a million dollar profitable business and jeopardise the entire operation for a bit more %?" Turns out they were willing to jeopardise it all.

Re: It's Time For a Hard Bitcoin Fork

#90
post #85

Why would GHash ever want to attack the platform from which it profits and from which it will likely continue to profit, as a leading transaction processor, for many years to come? Should they be silly enough to attempt something nefarious, miners would quickly abandon them, and their business would collapse overnight. Every major participant in the Bitcoin network, including GHash, has a vested interest in maintaini…

> Why would GHash ever want to attack the platform from which it profits and from which it will likely continue to profit, as a leading transaction processor, for many years to come?

There's pretty much an infinite number of reasons people choose short-term profit with apparent long-term opportunity cost above what apparently stable long-term profit streams. Betting that an actor with the power to do so would never do so usually is equivalent to creating a greater incentive for them to do so.

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