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For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

usmarshals.gov

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Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#401

Post by smsm42 »

Anderkent wrote: post #328
thesimpsons1022 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are times when analogies are very helpful.. this isn't one of them. instead of comparing it to that, let's talk about what it actually is. an illegal black market for drugs. you're either being greedy, disingenuous, or crazy if you think their money should be returned. if anything they are lucky the government doesn't pursue the users with legal action.

Is having bitcoin on a website illegal, even if you don't buy anything?

It's not illegal pre se, but if the website is engaged in illegal activity subject to seizure, you may lose your bitcoins, unless you can prove it is not connected to illegal activity.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#402

Post by InclinedPlane »

marme wrote: post #257

What people should be more concerned with is the fact that the government is selling off someone elses property before they have even been convicted of a crime. Dread pirate roberts plead not guilty and has still not had a trial yet. He has not been convicted of any crime so if these are his coins they are selling them before the trial is even finished

This has been the way asset forfeiture has worked since the '80s. People complain about the war on terror, but it's a sideshow compared to the deep and long lasting erosion of civil liberties that has been happening as part of the war on drugs for decades and decades.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#403

Post by cdash »

dllthomas wrote: post #373
scotty79 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a fee collected for helping with illegal transaction is by itself illegaly obtained money? If you are a cab driver and you have a client that you know is riding your cab to perform illegal trade. Does the police have right to seize your fare? Isn't that something court should determine?

IANAL. That said, my understanding is yes, if you know that the purpose of the travel is illegal, then you are aiding and abetting. If they can show it to a "preponderance of evidence" standard, they have the power (not "right") to seize your fare. If they can show it beyond a reasonable doubt, they have the power to punish you as well. As rayiner mentioned previously, the preponderance of evidence standard is actual…

As an example of this.

http://www.wbur.org/2012/11/14/tewksbury-motel-owner-fights-...

A hotel owned by someone who has no criminal record or charges is being seized because some of its guests have used it to commit their crimes.

Edit: Seems like the Judge ended up dismissing this specific attempt but the key to take away from this is that the government will try and also sometimes win such cases.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#404

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Eidetic wrote: post #374
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gold and diamonds have inherent value - they're both used industrially. Bitcoin perhaps doesn't have less inherent value than a non-backed currency though; but even being decades passed gold standard, and such, currencies that have a "reliable" government as support are still pretty reliable.

Wouldn't the value of gold and diamonds in that case be instrumental value, not inherent value? They are valuable by virtue of the aesthetic pleasure they cause in onlookers, or in their use as drils, and so on, where something with inherent value would be worth sustaining and creating even if it served no further end, like the life of a person for example.

I dare say you're right; never got far with Kant beyond the Imperatives - you appear to use his definition from within value ethics. My assessment was closer to the use in economics but still a bit aberrant - the context was the comparison of the value within the exchange articles themselves across paper money, gold, and cryptographic currency. The essence of my argument is that there is nothing else to be done with non-physical "articles" of exchange.

One might argue that the use of crypto hashes to certify documents or perform escrow-like services is comparable to the physical utility of gold and "paper" money. That seems a more apposite objection to my point, but hey ...

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#405

Post by dllthomas »

cdash wrote: post #403
dllthomas wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL. That said, my understanding is yes, if you know that the purpose of the travel is illegal, then you are aiding and abetting. If they can show it to a "preponderance of evidence" standard, they have the power (not "right") to seize your fare. If they can show it beyond a reasonable doubt, they have the power to punish you as well. As rayiner mentioned previously, the preponderance of evidence standard is actual…

As an example of this. http://www.wbur.org/2012/11/14/tewksbury-motel-owner-fights-... A hotel owned by someone who has no criminal record or charges is being seized because some of its guests have used it to commit their crimes. Edit: Seems like the Judge ended up dismissing this specific attempt but the key to take away from this is that the government will try and also sometimes win such cases.

Well, to a degree. That was a bigger grab, since (at least as far as I can see in the article) they did not allege - much less demonstrate - that he had knowledge of any specific instances of criminal behavior.

In some circumstances, it's legitimate - "Yeah, I'll be getaway driver for your heist for $X..."

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#406

Post by dllthomas »

smsm42 wrote: post #400
talmand wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they determine the property is the result of illegal activity if the owner of the property has yet to be convicted of illegal activity? That way of thinking opens up our current problems of police seizing everything within grasp during an arrest or traffic stop claiming the property is the result of illegal activity. "Hello, I pulled you over because it's late at night and I'm wondering if you're okay. Oh, you…

In general, civil forfeiture abuse is rampant and blooming in the US, especially given the financial incentive to perpetrate it and the lack of proper safeguards. That way of thinking you describe is already open and that's exactly what happens if the police suspects you are not going to give them a good fight (i.e. is poor or alien or live far away or something of that nature) and/or the money or the property would…

Honestly, I think we should just burn (the value of) the assets seized (after trial, appeal, &c, of course).

Yes, it would mean stepping up and funding things currently funded with proceeds from seizures, but it would remove significant incentive to overreach.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#407

Post by rayiner »

cdash wrote: post #403
dllthomas wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL. That said, my understanding is yes, if you know that the purpose of the travel is illegal, then you are aiding and abetting. If they can show it to a "preponderance of evidence" standard, they have the power (not "right") to seize your fare. If they can show it beyond a reasonable doubt, they have the power to punish you as well. As rayiner mentioned previously, the preponderance of evidence standard is actual…

As an example of this. http://www.wbur.org/2012/11/14/tewksbury-motel-owner-fights-... A hotel owned by someone who has no criminal record or charges is being seized because some of its guests have used it to commit their crimes. Edit: Seems like the Judge ended up dismissing this specific attempt but the key to take away from this is that the government will try and also sometimes win such cases.

The allegation there was that he knew about these activities and was turning a blind eye to profit from it. And as you note, the government didn't win there.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#408

Post by smsm42 »

dllthomas wrote: post #406
smsm42 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, civil forfeiture abuse is rampant and blooming in the US, especially given the financial incentive to perpetrate it and the lack of proper safeguards. That way of thinking you describe is already open and that's exactly what happens if the police suspects you are not going to give them a good fight (i.e. is poor or alien or live far away or something of that nature) and/or the money or the property would…

Honestly, I think we should just burn (the value of) the assets seized (after trial, appeal, &c, of course). Yes, it would mean stepping up and funding things currently funded with proceeds from seizures, but it would remove significant incentive to overreach.

Destroying resources just because criminal touched them seems pointless. Removing financial incentive for abuse seems reasonable, but that does not mean resources should be destroyed. They can be routed to the uses which have no connection with law enforcement and do not provide abuse initiative. US government has so many needs one can surely find one.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#409

Post by dllthomas »

smsm42 wrote: post #408
dllthomas wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think we should just burn (the value of) the assets seized (after trial, appeal, &c, of course). Yes, it would mean stepping up and funding things currently funded with proceeds from seizures, but it would remove significant incentive to overreach.

Destroying resources just because criminal touched them seems pointless. Removing financial incentive for abuse seems reasonable, but that does not mean resources should be destroyed. They can be routed to the uses which have no connection with law enforcement and do not provide abuse initiative. US government has so many needs one can surely find one.

In case it wasn't clear, I don't mean physical destruction of real things. I mean auctioning the physical, and then destroying the received money electronically.

With a fiat currency, it's not actually destroying anything. I'd rather no one feel it as part of their bottom line, or there will be pressure. Certainly, moving it far from law enforcement would be an improvement, but I think destruction is better.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#410

Post by Omniusaspirer »

danielweber wrote: post #322
Omniusaspirer wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That analogy is quite a reach, the guy behind silk road wasn't killing anybody or planning to. With that said, I agree there's risk involved in having the Silk Road hold your money and you can expect it might be seized by law enforcement. That doesn't make the government in the right morally for doing so despite the law saying they can- which was exactly my point in the first place. I'm not sure we're really on diffe…

That analogy is quite a reach, the guy behind silk road wasn't killing anybody or planning to. Unless this is some weird language trick where hiring a hit man somehow doesn't count as "planning to kill somebody," I'm assuming you are unaware that he was hiring a hitman.

Well...that makes me look a bit of a fool. :) The analogy was fair enough then and I apologize for calling it out.
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