Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do they determine the property is the result of illegal activity if the owner of the property has yet to be convicted of illegal activity? That way of thinking opens up our current problems of police seizing everything within grasp during an arrest or traffic stop claiming the property is the result of illegal activity. "Hello, I pulled you over because it's late at night and I'm wondering if you're okay. Oh, you…
Are you asking how the government can prove that the money in Silk Road's accounts are the proceeds of illegal activity? They have digital records all over the place to prove that. The magic of Bitcoin and the internet--where all activity is neatly recorded in server logs with timestamps. They can prove that without proving that Ulbricht is the one that engaged in the illegal activity. Indeed, Ulbricht's contention i…
For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
371–380 of 424 posts
Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the coins were seized on Silk Road servers they didn't belong to anyone at the time but the Silk Road. We can argue the merits of returning the coins to the last previously associated wallets; but I don't think the U.S. Gov has any intention of returning drug money to drug buyers the same way they wouldn't give gun money back to arms buyers.
But SR was not exclusively for drug sellers. Most of the business there was drugs, obviously, but some amount of that money would have bought legitimate items. So what gives them the right to sell off that money?
Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
#373Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you asking how the government can prove that the money in Silk Road's accounts are the proceeds of illegal activity? They have digital records all over the place to prove that. The magic of Bitcoin and the internet--where all activity is neatly recorded in server logs with timestamps. They can prove that without proving that Ulbricht is the one that engaged in the illegal activity. Indeed, Ulbricht's contention i…
Does a fee collected for helping with illegal transaction is by itself illegaly obtained money? If you are a cab driver and you have a client that you know is riding your cab to perform illegal trade. Does the police have right to seize your fare? Isn't that something court should determine?
That said, my understanding is yes, if you know that the purpose of the travel is illegal, then you are aiding and abetting. If they can show it to a "preponderance of evidence" standard, they have the power (not "right") to seize your fare. If they can show it beyond a reasonable doubt, they have the power to punish you as well.
As rayiner mentioned previously, the preponderance of evidence standard is actually not terribly out of place here, being that disputes about ownership of property are generally settled that way.
And yes, it is something for a court to determine.
Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't downvote you because it's important that people realize why you are wrong. The value of any fiat, piece of gold, diamond etc isn't falsifiable either. You are assuming that other types of currency has inherent value. They don't.
Gold and diamonds have inherent value - they're both used industrially. Bitcoin perhaps doesn't have less inherent value than a non-backed currency though; but even being decades passed gold standard, and such, currencies that have a "reliable" government as support are still pretty reliable.
Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
>If your theory is correct, people would hoard any resource that is increasing in value relative to something else. People do indeed have a tendency to do exactly that. Take gold hoarders, for instance. >An inflating currency would never catch on. It's a hot potato situation of "I don't actually want to own it because it's decreasing in value. If I do have some, I want to dump it on the next sucker as fast as possibl…
Milton Friedman believed that there should be an increase in monetary supply, irrespective of business cycles, etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman%27s_k-percent_rule Most mainstream economists agree with a steady expansion of the money supply (which does not necessarily lead to inflation unless the monetary supply grows faster than demand). Cryptocoins are an interesting example of rule-based monetary policy,…
Moneys based upon industrial processes, most notably mining of metals and coin minting, would then naturally increase the money supply at about the right rate, assuming improvements in the relevant disciplines occurred at about the same rate as everything else.
Obviously, Moore's Law pushes certain specific disciplines a lot faster than the rest of the economy. Computing hardware tech advances about 40% every year, over the last 50 years. Kryder's Law and Butters's Law, for hard disks and network bandwidth, goes even faster. Those, in turn, make automation and computerization of other industries cheaper, and they continue to improve in productivity.
When the increase in money supply is tied to increases in productivity, naturally, the people providing the innovations and advances reap the benefits by getting the new money first.
This does not imply that the controller of a fiat currency should set a target inflation rate. That new money is going to the wrong people. It goes to the bankers who happen to be robbing the economy at exactly the same rate that inventors and innovators are adding to it. They are now treading water to stay right where they were before, and everyone else loses ground.
If you have no mechanism to ensure that the growth in the money supply goes directly to the people growing the economy, you are better off establishing a completely fixed money supply. That allows innovators to gain as they should, but with steadily falling prices rather than stable prices. That complicates the business math somewhat, but if everyone just assumes the same 2.5% annual growth in the economy over the same fixed money supply, it isn't that hard to work out.
If people can use Quickbooks to run their business, they can handle a fixed-quantity money supply. What no one likes is a steadily inflating money supply where only the people running like mad on the treadmill can stay in the same place, while fat cats in motorized carts throw pennies at them.
Bitcoin has a bit of a compromise, in that the people reaping the inflation windfall are the ones covering the actual operating costs of the system. But it is unfortunately not tied to the value of goods and services in the Bitcoin economy. Fixing the money supply increase in advance requires that you predict how quickly suppliers and consumers will adopt the medium of exchange. I think the guesser guessed wrong. But even so, the proof of concept is pretty darned good, for the first iteration. The only real danger is that it is good enough that people will never migrate to anything better.
Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
#376Earlier quoted context omitted.
1: I did not explain myself clearly. What I meant is: when more and more bitcoins are being used for regular economic transactions, the proportion of bitcoins used by speculators is, by comparison, decreasing. And the smaller this proportion is, the less volatile the currency is. 2: "encouraging hoarding": no, this is not what was observed in practice with Bitcoin. I can't remember if it was Bitpay or Coinbase, but t…
The general literature on deflation is that deflation is much much worse in the long run. In particular, borrowing becomes significantly more difficult and those who have loans are trapped with them, as their wages are pushed downwards by deflationary forces but the nominal loan remains the same. While run-away inflation and run-away deflation are both awful, an economy which slowly inflates is better than one that s…
- Japan's GDP grew by 12% between 1990 and 2010, from 430 to 482 billion Yen (the NYT author incorrectly assimilates it to "an economy remaining the same size"?!)
- GDP per capita is 16% higher in Japan in 2010 than it was in 1990 [1]
- The NYT article gives absolutely zero other economic numbers, no objective evidence, nothing (it merely gives annecdotal evidence as in "so and so lost their house")
Why is this NYT article so bad and vague, when economic indicators I quoted above ARE actually (slightly) improving? I am not the only one to criticize it, see this response by the Center for Economic and Policy Research: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/deflating...
[1] http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/01/weodata/weor...
Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everybody who used Silk Road knew that the site was illegal, and everybody who used Silk Road willfully paid a commission to Ross. IANAL, but even if you only bought legal goods from Silk Road, you were still aiding and abetting a drug market.
An illegal site... illegal site... Illegal. Site. I'm not sure that I like the sort of thinking that would put those two words together, ever. It would appear as though you think it possible that a flea market should be responsible for the conduct of its buyers and sellers, or that a public bulletin board be responsible for all material posted there. I dislike the idea that a government that nominally prohibits itsel…
You don't find pounds and pounds of cocaine in flea markets. The site was illegal, to the extent that any site can be, because its owners were aware of the illegal activity and, rather than reporting it, acted to facilitate it. Flea market owners in the same position would be just as liable.
> What, then, has Silk Road been convicted of? Maintaining a public nuisance?
Nothing yet, but you can ask again next year.
Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
#378What people should be more concerned with is the fact that the government is selling off someone elses property before they have even been convicted of a crime. Dread pirate roberts plead not guilty and has still not had a trial yet. He has not been convicted of any crime so if these are his coins they are selling them before the trial is even finished
What happens if he is found not guilty, and they've already sold all of his assets?
Criminal trial requires "beyond reasonable doubt" while civil forfiture requires "balance of probabilities"?
Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
#379Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you asking how the government can prove that the money in Silk Road's accounts are the proceeds of illegal activity? They have digital records all over the place to prove that. The magic of Bitcoin and the internet--where all activity is neatly recorded in server logs with timestamps. They can prove that without proving that Ulbricht is the one that engaged in the illegal activity. Indeed, Ulbricht's contention i…
They claim to have "proof", but what ever happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?
Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins
#380Earlier quoted context omitted.
Disclaimer: I think civil forfeiture laws are applied without sufficient discretion in drug cases. And it's troubling that they apply not just to illegally-obtained assets, but those that are "instrumentality of a crime." That said, there's an important wrinkle here that you're glossing over, and that is usually glossed over in discussions about civil forfeiture. Civil forfeiture is not confiscation of your property…
How do they determine the property is the result of illegal activity if the owner of the property has yet to be convicted of illegal activity? That way of thinking opens up our current problems of police seizing everything within grasp during an arrest or traffic stop claiming the property is the result of illegal activity. "Hello, I pulled you over because it's late at night and I'm wondering if you're okay. Oh, you…
And the government has said, "Hey, if you own this wallet, which we have tied multiple controlled buys to, you're more than welcome to claim it, or we'll sell it. We might want to have a little chat to you about it, though."
Ross said "Nope. Not mine." He relinquished all claim to it, so his innocence or conviction is irrelevant.