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Why we're suing the CIA

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Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#31

Post by tendom »

chad_oliver wrote: post #18
tendom wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this is about democracy, but the freedoms of the constitution and a less corrupt system than some other countries. Corruption still exists heavily in America, but it's primarily focused on money and lobbies and whatnot.

It may not be directly associated to the democratic process for electing a government, but I think you'll find that it's still closely related to democracy in general. Democracy is fundamentally anchored on the idea that the legitimate right to govern derives from the people, not from the sword or from the blessing of a priest. This means that governments exist to serve the people, not the other way around. The freed…

Well, I think this is not the case in practice, only in ideal. Russia is democratic by definition (far more so than China is communist), so is almost all of South America, at least a third of Africa, most of Europe, and several Asian countries including India (Which just had the biggest democratic election in the world), and most of coastal Asia. There are a few in the middle east, but those have yet to really take fruit. Democracy in practice only means the people get to choose from one or more preselected individuals.

Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#32

Post by patcon »

megablast wrote: post #24
te_platt wrote: post #9

As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing. I'm guessing not too many Russians sued the KGB.

I wonder if we got to where we are now, with a much more open and free society, by pushing for it to be better, or postulating that it could be worse?

This is great perspective. Thanks.

Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#33

Post by tendom »

clarkmoody wrote: post #19
tendom wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this is about democracy, but the freedoms of the constitution and a less corrupt system than some other countries. Corruption still exists heavily in America, but it's primarily focused on money and lobbies and whatnot.

Precisely. A strong republic is more of what you want.

Well, the bulk of the governments today can be classified as Democracy, Monarchy, and Constitutional Monarchy. On the whole, if we average the types of government, you'll find that Constitutional Monarchy actually has a higher middle class wealth, more freedom, and less 'mysterious disappearances' than the republics. I've seen some pretty bad republics in my travels.

Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#34

Post by nitrogen »

cookingrobot wrote: post #20
pdenya wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't bother trying" -- great advice.

"Don't waste your time on this approach" isn't defeatist, it's saying you'll get a better outcome with another approach. There are lots of worthless activities that will change nothing, and a very few that are effective. It's important to think about how to invest. That said.. It's more helpful to hear alternate ideas than just "this won't work".

Maybe, every now and then, someone has to try an apparently futile approach just to remind everybody that the system is still broken.

Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#35

Post by adobriyan »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #27
te_platt wrote: post #9

As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing. I'm guessing not too many Russians sued the KGB.

That may be because no one needs to be disappeared, because the plaintiff just won't win. Remember the Church Committee only managed to scratch the surface. So what makes you think that suddenly, now, there will be transparency and justice. And even if the court ruled for the plaintiff, what happens if the CIA refuses to comply? Who is gonna hold them to account? You? Congress? The president? LOL.

In back then USSR liberal loonies cried that "freedom of choice between 2 or more candidates in elections" is all you need.

Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#36

Post by tedks »

te_platt wrote: post #9

As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing. I'm guessing not too many Russians sued the KGB.

Playing a rigged game is never a threat to the game-rigger.

Do more than that[0][1] and the kid gloves come off.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_%28journalist... [1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coo...

Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#37

Post by atmosx »

te_platt wrote: post #9

As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing. I'm guessing not too many Russians sued the KGB.

If cold war communist Russia became the limit now, I'm sorry to say that we're screwed.

Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#38

Post by higherpurpose »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #27
te_platt wrote: post #9

As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing. I'm guessing not too many Russians sued the KGB.

That may be because no one needs to be disappeared, because the plaintiff just won't win. Remember the Church Committee only managed to scratch the surface. So what makes you think that suddenly, now, there will be transparency and justice. And even if the court ruled for the plaintiff, what happens if the CIA refuses to comply? Who is gonna hold them to account? You? Congress? The president? LOL.

NSA is already acting like it's "too big to comply", so it actually doesn't sound too far fetched:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/too-big-comply-n...

Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#39

Post by grecy »

te_platt wrote: post #9

As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing. I'm guessing not too many Russians sued the KGB.

It's a shame you would compare a Developed country, supposedly one of the best, with one that's knows to be not so good.

It's like comparing your sports team to one that consistently finishes low on the ladder - your team will always look good, even when they are far from the top.

If you want a comparison that will lead to improvement, compare your country to those known to have excellent human rights and freedom of information track records.

Re: Why we're suing the CIA

#40

Post by sid6376 »

tedks wrote: post #36
te_platt wrote: post #9

As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing. I'm guessing not too many Russians sued the KGB.

Playing a rigged game is never a threat to the game-rigger. Do more than that[0][1] and the kid gloves come off. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_%28journalist... [1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coo...

The second link looks particularly scary. Does anyone have a rebuttal to this?
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