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Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

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Re: Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

#31
BTW, for good reading material on control rooms, look on Google Scholar for papers by Paul Heath and Christian Luff. They're very thorough in their analysis of how people in control rooms communicate and "spontaneously" synchronise their actions.

Re: Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially for programming, the tools have to be narrowly tailored to the examples since you're constantly wrestling with the specter of Turing-completeness. Any given program is an instance of an infinite number of more general classes of programs, and it's the tool designer's job to choose which dimensions of the design space are meaningful and important enough to be worth simultaneously visualizing the consequence…

That strategy lead to quite the run-on sentence. You have much work ahead of you friend from that appearance alone.

Agreed, I've been thinking too much in code, not enough in English.

Re: Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

#33

I think software engineer and the fundamentals of coding have always had a bias towards those who can conceptualize ideas in the abstract, then build with the assumptions that those concepts are happening regardless of their ability to see them. This is fine, except that it limits those who need to tinker in order to find out how those concepts work. When the elements are visually recognizable and physically manipula…

I can't tell if everyone one is like that (I assume not), but I am extremely reliant on visualization, and I suppose Bret is also. I believe profoundly on it's power partly because it's the only way I can really get things done properly, which is why those tools resonate so much to me. I have a friend however that shudders every time I mention making programming more visual.

I mean, If I'm not visualizing something, I can perhaps find some solution in a logical way following some guidelines -- much like following a recipe to solve a equation or doing trial an error to solve an algebraic problem. But critically, I can't create this way. I may stumble unto something useful, but it's an entirely different process from creativity -- it's efficiency is so much lower that it's qualitatively different.

But my difficulty at that is not fundamental, I think. I believe you can be creative purely 'algebraically', but I have no experience with it -- but I do believe that some people have the same efficiency that I have when I think visually and perhaps stumble a little more when trying to visualize things themselves.

I do think this diversity is quite good, but that's missing the point. My point is that Bret's tools shouldn't be universally essential, but are probably universally beneficial. And for some people, like me, they'd be simply enabling.

To give an exaple: when I see a system of linear equations, I don't think of a bunch of steps to solve them and the number of cases that the solutions may look like in terms of constraints of variables an so on. I think of the Image hyperplane, which can be abstracted as a plane in 3D, and the Kernel, which may be for example a line not on the Image. Then instead I wonder if the Kernel is non-null, what funny things this matrix is doing to the vectors (are they rotating, contracting, and so on), or what are the invariant subspaces. I can answer most questions one could ask about such system, but it's a distinct way, I'm not sure if more efficient or not (and that may be up to the task).

Re: Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

#34
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's… horrible. It feels like he's under a gag order. I wager this stuff could be useful to all of us, but Apple just clings on this "Intellectual Property" like, like… Well, like any corporation.

Huh...? He worked for a company out of his own will, and that company paid him in exchange for his work, with the full understanding that all ownership of the work would go to them. I mean, it's not even as if Apple hides that about them- that's one thing they tell you OVER and OVER when you interview with them. He knew exactly what he was getting into when he accepted to work for them (and did so for many years), an…

I don't think it's distasteful. He lays the blame where appropriate: it was his own "terrible mistake".

Re: Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

#36
I love Bret Victor's talks, blog posts, etc. They're super inspiring.

2 things came to mind though.

1. It seems, possibly, the exact wrong time to make rooms with giant displays. With things like Google Glass and Oculus Rift as first gen (2nd?) VR/AR you could project all of that info virtually and cheaply and be able to have all the visualization he describes wherever you are, not just at a makerspace that only a few people can use at a time.

2. I'm always super inspired by the Bret's visualizations but when I actually try to figure out how they'd be implemented I'm clearly not smart enough to figure out how that would happen.

In this example in particular, he shows graph toward the end where the system tries every setting and graphs the results so it's easy to pick out the best setting. How would that happen? How does the system know what "good" is? It seems to me it can't know that. You'd have to program it which in itself would be pretty hard. Worse, most system have not just one adjustment but many. Just a few and there'd be tens of thousands of variations/combinations to try to figure out "best".

I'm not saying we can't get there. Maybe the first step is building a framework that would make it easy to make systems like that with various kinds of visualizers, analysers, time-recording, searching features etc, and maybe somewhere along the way we'd figure out how to automate more of it.

I'd love to help work on such a system.

Re: Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

#37
I love Bret Victor's talks, blog posts, etc. They're super inspiring.

2 things came to mind though.

1. It seems, possibly, the exact wrong time to make rooms with giant displays. With things like Google Glass and Oculus Rift as first gen (2nd?) VR/AR you could project all of that info virtually and cheaply and be able to have all the visualization he describes wherever you are, not just at a makerspace that only a few people can use at a time.

2. I'm always super inspired by the Bret's visualizations but when I actually try to figure out how they'd be implemented I'm clearly not smart enough to figure out how that would happen.

In this example in particular, he shows graph toward the end where the system tries every setting and graphs the results so it's easy to pick out the best setting. How would that happen? How does the system know what "good" is? It seems to me it can't know that. You'd have to program it which in itself would be pretty hard. Worse, most system have not just one adjustment but many. Just a few and there'd be tens of thousands of variations/combinations to try to figure out "best".

I'm not saying we can't get there. Maybe the first step is building a framework that would make it easy to make systems like that with various kinds of visualizers, analysers, time-recording, searching features etc, and maybe somewhere along the way we'd figure out how to automate more of it.

I'd love to help work on such a system.

Re: Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

#38

I think software engineer and the fundamentals of coding have always had a bias towards those who can conceptualize ideas in the abstract, then build with the assumptions that those concepts are happening regardless of their ability to see them. This is fine, except that it limits those who need to tinker in order to find out how those concepts work. When the elements are visually recognizable and physically manipula…

I can't tell if everyone one is like that (I assume not), but I am extremely reliant on visualization, and I suppose Bret is also. I believe profoundly on it's power partly because it's the only way I can really get things done properly, which is why those tools resonate so much to me. I have a friend however that shudders every time I mention making programming more visual. I mean, If I'm not visualizing something,…

A major problem I can see is that the more interesting a problem becomes, the more impossible to visualize. You might visualize a system of linear equations when it is 3 dimensional. But try visualizing a system with 1000 dimensions. It breaks down very easily. In the end my opinion is that one is simply going to be better off learning to think critically and in the abstract.

Again just my opinion - those who say they are better at visual problems often just need to practice more without the crutch.

Re: Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

#39

I love Bret Victor's talks, blog posts, etc. They're super inspiring. 2 things came to mind though. 1. It seems, possibly, the exact wrong time to make rooms with giant displays. With things like Google Glass and Oculus Rift as first gen (2nd?) VR/AR you could project all of that info virtually and cheaply and be able to have all the visualization he describes wherever you are, not just at a makerspace that only a fe…

I just wanted to make a couple of comments; 1. I think that when something is new, like Google Glass or occulus rift, we (as nerds) tend to think it's the future because it hasn't been possible before before we have quite worked out when it's most applicable. Giant displays are awesome when you're brainstorming a topic with people in the room, which is what maker spaces seem to be about.

I can see glass being good for things like surgery, where you need to concentrate your attention on something, but would like some extra data to be easily available.

VR might be a substitute for live brainstorming sessions, and it might allow you to visualise in new ways. But latency is going to be killer across remote locations, and that's a big challenge in terms of infrastructure.

2. I'd imagine as these types of techniques become commonplace, we'll have to learn more stats.

You could also apply clustering and neural nets to a lot of data sets, but yeah - maybe we'll all have to become statisticians.

Re: Bret Victor: Seeing Spaces [video]

#40
post #3

He just keeps knocking stuff out of the park.

no, he's not. this is his weakest presentation yet. he was on, but now he fell off. it's not making any sense that he's gone in this direction, and let last year's software ideas wither away on the vine. He should actually propel forward last year's ideas by at least releasing the stuff he said he'd open source on github. Instead, he hasn't done that, nor has he made his own commercial company (which would be a perfe…

I think with things like swift playground and lighttable which have been released due to a direct influence on Brett's work, maybe he's in exactly the right place? By discussion the broader concepts and getting people excited, he's probably getting more done than he could with a single company.
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