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Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

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Re: Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

#151

Post by Xurinos »

js2 wrote: post #8

In this case, em dashes are doing something similar to a pair of commas, which can also denote side info but they do it more casually, and parentheses. "and parentheses" what? And they are also like em dashes? Edit: Thank you for the explanation folks. For whatever reason I found the use of commas to denote the aside very difficult to parse. I think maybe it's because of the first comma after "In this case."

This sentence really clued me into my problem with the essay. As I read it, I found myself tripping over the sentences, especially this one. I had to reread it in order to understand what the author was saying.

Today's punctuation rules may have awkward beginnings, but the rules are standard, familiar, and subconsciously expected. This actually improves the speed at which I can read. The author's style had several places that were difficult for me because I have been mentally trained on one set of road signs and meanings.

Re: Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

#152

Post by pdpi »

Schwolop wrote: post #142

Did I miss a joke right at the end, or was the whole essay demeaned by getting could and couldn't wrong in the final sentence?

I think you did miss a joke, or at least didn't parse the sentence correctly (which probably negates his point in and of itself).

After a bit of clean up, it reads "If Yoda could make his point clear, nobody should give a shit about Oxford commas."

Re: Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

#153

Post by Anderkent »

cromulent wrote: post #48
Stratoscope wrote: post #40

Most of the time, you can use the Oxford comma, the non-Oxford comma or any other kind of comma, and it just doesn't make any difference. But sometimes you need it. Here's an example: "There are two hard problems in Computer Science: naming things, cache expiration, and off-by-one errors." Take out the comma and you ruin the joke - at least to my ears: "There are two hard problems in Computer Science: naming things,…

In my natural parsing, if you are enumerating things, once I hit the "and" then I know you have moved on to the next item. So, for me it is not needed - but that may be "British laxness" [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves#Critici...

But then you have to backtrack quite often.

>We went out for drinks, fish and chips, and some ice cream.

Re: Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

#154

Post by lhgaghl »

bsilvereagle wrote: post #62
cpt1138 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did too. Couldn't figure out why that was even in there. It seemed so ludicrously out of place but so intentional.

It reinforced the point of the whole essay.

What? How so? (And what was the point of the article? That English isn't math?)

Re: Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

#155

Post by ebspelman »

If you have an hour and this topic really interests you, I'd recommend David Foster Wallace's essay "Authority and American Usage" - http://wilson.med.harvard.edu/nb204/AuthorityAndAmericanUsag....

He covers (very fairly and entertainingly, IMO) the major divide between linguistic prescriptivists and descriptivists, and why both camps have a point.

Re: Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

#156

Post by breadbox »

gregoire wrote: post #96

This article makes me think about a question to which I still haven't found an answer: For me (I'm not a native english speaker by the way), when reading out loud a text, all commas are "translated" by a pause. But there are some sentences for which I don't understand why a comma is used, as I wouldn't pause at the comma when saying these sentences out loud. For example: > The problem is that many people have horribl…

It's a safe bet that any rule regarding English grammar that includes the word "always" is either a) mistaken, or b) so obvious that you probably wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.

Commas began life as indicators of pause, but in modern English they are indicators of clause -- that is, they indicate grammatical structure. The places where we don't normally use pauses to indicate structure in spoken English (but still use commas in written English) are where you're noticing the discrepancy. Specifically, it's a common practice that you should use a comma to separate an adverb (like "too") from the rest of the sentence when it's being used to modify the sentence as a whole. This isn't a struct rule, and some people prefer a style of omitting such commas.

Re: Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

#157

Post by gregoire »

breadbox wrote: post #156
gregoire wrote: post #96

This article makes me think about a question to which I still haven't found an answer: For me (I'm not a native english speaker by the way), when reading out loud a text, all commas are "translated" by a pause. But there are some sentences for which I don't understand why a comma is used, as I wouldn't pause at the comma when saying these sentences out loud. For example: > The problem is that many people have horribl…

It's a safe bet that any rule regarding English grammar that includes the word "always" is either a) mistaken, or b) so obvious that you probably wouldn't be questioning it in the first place. Commas began life as indicators of pause, but in modern English they are indicators of clause -- that is, they indicate grammatical structure. The places where we don't normally use pauses to indicate structure in spoken Englis…

Thank you for your explanation, I was not aware of the "comma to separate an adverb" rule in written English.

Re: Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

#158

Post by joshuacc »

gregoire wrote: post #96

This article makes me think about a question to which I still haven't found an answer: For me (I'm not a native english speaker by the way), when reading out loud a text, all commas are "translated" by a pause. But there are some sentences for which I don't understand why a comma is used, as I wouldn't pause at the comma when saying these sentences out loud. For example: > The problem is that many people have horribl…

I pause at those commas. And so do most of the people I know. However, I've noticed that it is much easier to notice the pauses if the speaker is from the South and speaks with a drawl. :-)

Re: Nobody. Understands. Punctuation.

#159

Post by Schwolop »

pdpi wrote: post #152
Schwolop wrote: post #142

Did I miss a joke right at the end, or was the whole essay demeaned by getting could and couldn't wrong in the final sentence?

I think you did miss a joke, or at least didn't parse the sentence correctly (which probably negates his point in and of itself). After a bit of clean up, it reads "If Yoda could make his point clear, nobody should give a shit about Oxford commas."

Ah! I was parsing it as something like "If Yoda could give a shit about Oxford commas, you shouldn't either." Which then lead to thinking it should have said 'couldn't' instead.

Cheers

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