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Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

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Re: Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

#101

Post by Karunamon »

glesica wrote: post #63
reedlaw wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the fines are 2-3 times the amount stolen. That would cut into the legitimate portion of their income and likely be a strong deterrent.

The problem is that you have to know how often they get caught in order to decide the amount. For example, if they only get caught 1/4 of the time, the fine needs to be greater than four times the amount stolen to make a difference (force the expected value of the behavior below zero). In practice, it would probably need to be quite a bit higher than that since people who do this sort of thing are likely risk-takers/…

On principle, I'm opposed to prison being used for anything but violent offenders where there are no other choices to safely contain them - prison includes a very real possibility of rape, assault, and so on.

The administrative penalties could simply be scaled to be much scarier without needing to go that far.

Personal financial liability (piercing the corporate veil) with limited negotiation of terms (and since personal credit is usually factored into business credit, that bankruptcy will greatly impact your ability to do business), administrative dissolution of business, very very large fines, and so on.

Re: Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

#102

Post by dandelany »

Shivetya wrote: post #89
ChuckFrank wrote: post #21

What a fiasco. This story just keeps getting bigger and bigger. So many lessons to be learned about a flawed bidding and construction process. And from what I see, it's immune to politics. No party can take the higher ground. Public sector graft and private sector lying, cheating and thieving, both need to be stopped and big, small government, or running government like a business doesn't seem to help. Instead, worki…

I am trying to understand how this fiasco is any different from Boston's big dig? Are we just posturing because it was a Chinese company? Neither was bid/priced right and both have/had safety problems. Welcome to the world of government contracts, big projects tend to be vastly different than what is proposed or agreed too. Hence I am confused as to why the controversy this time.

So your argument is, because government projects are usually problematic, we should not be calling attention to new problematic projects? Doesn't that seem a little... fatalistic?

Re: Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

#103

Post by glesica »

Karunamon wrote: post #101
glesica wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you have to know how often they get caught in order to decide the amount. For example, if they only get caught 1/4 of the time, the fine needs to be greater than four times the amount stolen to make a difference (force the expected value of the behavior below zero). In practice, it would probably need to be quite a bit higher than that since people who do this sort of thing are likely risk-takers/…

On principle, I'm opposed to prison being used for anything but violent offenders where there are no other choices to safely contain them - prison includes a very real possibility of rape, assault, and so on. The administrative penalties could simply be scaled to be much scarier without needing to go that far. Personal financial liability (piercing the corporate veil) with limited negotiation of terms (and since pers…

I completely agree with you that rape and assault in prisons is a terrible problem. I still think prison is a better solution, but I definitely agree that throwing anyone in the prisons we have currently (at least in the US) is probably immoral.

Re: Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

#104

Post by jusben1369 »

masomenos wrote: post #99
Shivetya wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am trying to understand how this fiasco is any different from Boston's big dig? Are we just posturing because it was a Chinese company? Neither was bid/priced right and both have/had safety problems. Welcome to the world of government contracts, big projects tend to be vastly different than what is proposed or agreed too. Hence I am confused as to why the controversy this time.

Are you implying that there wasn't controversy over the Big Dig? I remember plenty.

I read the article as having a strongly anti Chinese bias. So I think Shivetya's point was a fair one which is "Should this be a story on government mishandling of big projects" as the lead and move away from the Chinese bashing? Or is there a legitimate angle for the overall story about the fact the cheapest bid also happened to be a Chinese company.

Re: Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

#105

Post by Mtinie »

jusben1369 wrote: post #104
masomenos wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying that there wasn't controversy over the Big Dig? I remember plenty.

I read the article as having a strongly anti Chinese bias. So I think Shivetya's point was a fair one which is "Should this be a story on government mishandling of big projects" as the lead and move away from the Chinese bashing? Or is there a legitimate angle for the overall story about the fact the cheapest bid also happened to be a Chinese company.

The communication problems detailed in the article, coupled with the pre-construction work that was completed in China and then shipped across the Pacific, makes a difference when it comes to the management of the project.

That's not to say that these are unique problems because the contracting firm was Chinese, rather than, say, French. However, in this case it is relevant to the overall narrative that the challenges exist, because they make it that much harder to proactively address quality deficiencies.

Re: Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

#106

Post by jessaustin »

I've never been involved in bridge contracts, but all the highway construction contracts I've seen have specified performance bonds sufficient to finish the project in case of problems. I thought this was a requirement for any project that gets federal money (which is effectively any highway project at all). It's surprising that an article this long wouldn't even mention whether the bonds proved sufficient, how much the insurer tried to weasel out of the bonds, whether the insurer insisted on hiring a new contractor, etc.

That this topic hasn't even come up, leads me to believe that the state inspectors have completely failed in their duties. With all due respect to Hanlon, the simplest explanation for such total failure is not "gosh they must be stupid!"

Re: Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

#108

Post by bagosm »

Ok I have a very serious question that none seems to dress, so I must be missing something. Please I really want to be enlightened because I am puzzled by this.

I don't even buy a toaster without some kind of guarantee for the coming years and some kind of maintenance available.

Why doesn't the bridge contract have that?

Re: Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

#109

Post by justizin »

ChuckFrank wrote: post #21

What a fiasco. This story just keeps getting bigger and bigger. So many lessons to be learned about a flawed bidding and construction process. And from what I see, it's immune to politics. No party can take the higher ground. Public sector graft and private sector lying, cheating and thieving, both need to be stopped and big, small government, or running government like a business doesn't seem to help. Instead, worki…

first, let's jail the guys on wall street who probably bet that the bridge would end up fucked up.

Re: Troubled welds on the Bay Bridge

#110

Post by bradleysmith »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #83
ChuckFrank wrote: post #21

What a fiasco. This story just keeps getting bigger and bigger. So many lessons to be learned about a flawed bidding and construction process. And from what I see, it's immune to politics. No party can take the higher ground. Public sector graft and private sector lying, cheating and thieving, both need to be stopped and big, small government, or running government like a business doesn't seem to help. Instead, worki…

I don't really see any evidence of corruption here. Just accepting a low bid from a contractor that scored poorly on the technical evaluation. Sometimes that pays off, in this case it clearly didn't.

"Caltrans permitted an unknown number of cracked or suspect welds in the suspension span. After two senior engineers challenged quality assurance practices, Caltrans reassigned one and let the other’s contract lapse."

"Tony Anziano, chief executive for toll-bridge work, made at least 64 visits to Shanghai, stayed in one of the city’s most luxurious hotels and spent more than $300,000 on travel during construction."

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