iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks • Hacker News Board

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#211

Post by bsimpson » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:02 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #79

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FT brought up a similar contrast two weeks ago when discussing Apple and Google's smart home strategies. They speculated that Apple is likely "to emphasise the privacy protections built into its smart home system... Apple considers privacy a key advantage over Google...since Google relies on targeted advertising as its main source of income" [1]. This will be an interesting competition. Google, for openness and t…

> Google, for openness and transparency I'm not entirely sure what you mean — that Google openly and transparently tracks user behaviors so that they can make money on targeted advertising? If you try to compare the two companies, I'd say the difference is that Apple charges you a premium for their devices (thus making money), while Google gathers data about you so that it can be sold to advertisers (thus making mone…

I suspect OP is comparing the way the companies embrace technology. Google has been an big proponent of the open web and of supporting the same standards as everybody else. Apple has been pretty single-mindedly focused on being proprietary whenever possible. (They support open standards on the web, but the rest of their platform is only inner-operable with itself.)

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#212

Post by hahainternet » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:04 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #99

geon wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google, for openness and transparency I don't really see it. They have released some stuff as / contributed to open source, but so has Apple. By transparency, do you mean their real name policy?

Notably, more recently Google has become less open. Apps written for AOSP that don't use the "Google Play Services" library are second class citizens. Google is for "openness" only when it doesn't impact their bottom line.

> Apps written for AOSP that don't use the "Google Play Services" library are second class citizens

I love some of the hyperbole that gets written on HN about Google/Android.

Where do you even get some of this nonsense?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#213

Post by hahainternet » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:06 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #72

hatsix wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple. Yes, Apple certainly wouldn't develop/release a product whose sole purpose is to track user's physical presence, with the primary use point being able to sell the…

No, you misunderstand iBeacon. The sole purpose of iBeacon is to let handsets detect it , not the other way around. In order to for it to be used to track users, the user would have to run an app that detects the beacon and then communicates back to the business. In other words, the user has to opt in to tracking.

> No, you misunderstand iBeacon. The sole purpose of iBeacon is to let handsets detect it, not the other way around.

You are wrong, the point of iBeacon is to allow an app to track its position.

Apple is not about privacy, they're about controlling what they consider to be their customers. They will be the gateway the users go through for any service whatsoever. They get their 30% no matter what.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#214

Post by ZachPruckowski » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:07 PM UTC

shurcooL wrote: post #92

DanBC wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. But stores do not want to do that. Stores know you want a pint of milk and loaf of bread. They put these two items far apart which means you need to walk past all that other stuff, this increasing the chance you'll buy something else. Tracking technology isn't going to ne used to ma…

This is interesting and indicative of a bigger problem. Why isn't it most profitable for the stores to provide the best experience for customers in order to be most profitable? Suppose there are two stores: - Store A. Offers decent experience for the customer. - Store B. Offers much better experience for the customer. One would naively expect and hope that, given those two choices, more people would prefer to go to t…

I think part of it is that there's no real venue for customers to express their satisfaction to other prospective customers. If I find a store relatively well-laid-out, convenient, and friendly, I don't have a lot of opportunities to evangelize that store, even if I want to, because my legitimate actual real customer opinion gets crowded out by and blends in with astro-turfers. Sure I can talk it up to my friends, but that's not really a common topic of conversation.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#215

Post by infra178 » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

What about Bluetooth?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#216

Post by arrrg » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:24 PM UTC

hahainternet wrote: post #213

abalone wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you misunderstand iBeacon. The sole purpose of iBeacon is to let handsets detect it , not the other way around. In order to for it to be used to track users, the user would have to run an app that detects the beacon and then communicates back to the business. In other words, the user has to opt in to tracking.

> No, you misunderstand iBeacon. The sole purpose of iBeacon is to let handsets detect it, not the other way around. You are wrong, the point of iBeacon is to allow an app to track its position. Apple is not about privacy, they're about controlling what they consider to be their customers. They will be the gateway the users go through for any service whatsoever. They get their 30% no matter what.

Huh?

The big difference is opting in and consent. That’s what’s important. Also, yeah, Apple get their 30% – but only if apps actually cost anything. Those store apps usually don’t cost anything (the stores want to sell the stuff in the stores, not apps) so they will cost Apple money, not make Apple money.

I don’t really get where you see the incentive for Apple to do this, besides privacy.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#217

Post by fooqux » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:30 PM UTC

bcohen5055 wrote: post #207

userbinator wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disturbingly creepy to think that stores would even think of doing this, but on the other hand it's also an indication of how clueless the general population is about the amount of identifiable data they're unconsciously "leaking" through personal, (nearly) always-on devices. My laptop is setup with a random MAC precisely to prevent this sort of tracking. Interestingly, the unbranded Android phones I have (one l…

Why is this so creepy? They know a piece of hardware has been in certain locations for a certain amount of time. This data can help improve your shopping experience and help the store better market to you. (While also increasing their sales). There is nothing personal about at MAC address go ahead and track it. Also... Yes keeping your phone in Airplane mode is a bit paranoid.

Assuming they track every single purchase made at a store along with the credit card number used (or at least some form of ID associated with that particular card), and all the times the MACs left the store, how many sets of data do you think they need to get a 1:1 match between MAC and person? Even for really large stores, I'm guessing it would only take 2-3 visits before they can link you to POS records with decent accuracy.

Once they have that, your MAC address becomes personal. They know what that MAC buys, how long they spend in the store, how much they spend in the store, how often they visit, etc.

Couple that with the fact that with enough WiFi APs, you can triangulate a certain MAC to a specific location in the store, match with the cameras, etc. Probably track you to your car if they wanted with their satellites watching their parking lots.

And then we get into the problems created when these stores either start sharing this info, or the vendor they hire to install their tracking system starts approaching full coverage of the nation / developed world.

Keep in mind this isn't 'crazy future minority report' stuff. These are all things they are either doing now or could easily do now. All in all, it's just another damn piece of info about me that was once personal and now no longer is. "The amount of time Ben Reaves is spending looking at adult diapers is trending up. Flag their profile for incontinence."

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#218

Post by lsaferite » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:36 PM UTC

bsimpson wrote: post #209

userbinator wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disturbingly creepy to think that stores would even think of doing this, but on the other hand it's also an indication of how clueless the general population is about the amount of identifiable data they're unconsciously "leaking" through personal, (nearly) always-on devices. My laptop is setup with a random MAC precisely to prevent this sort of tracking. Interestingly, the unbranded Android phones I have (one l…

I'm a technologist and I didn't know that devices advertise their MAC addresses when scanning for WiFi until someone in that business told me. I always thought it was the other way around (base stations advertise themselves and devices affiliate with ones they recognize). Though accurate, "clueless" is a bit harsh. I don't expect the general public to know the implementation details of WiFi any more than I expect the…

Active scanning for known base stations is a 'feature' most people don't know about either. You phone actively tries to connect to base stations it knows, opening you up to attacks from devices like the WiFi pineapple.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#219

Post by lsaferite » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:39 PM UTC

fooqux wrote: post #217

bcohen5055 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this so creepy? They know a piece of hardware has been in certain locations for a certain amount of time. This data can help improve your shopping experience and help the store better market to you. (While also increasing their sales). There is nothing personal about at MAC address go ahead and track it. Also... Yes keeping your phone in Airplane mode is a bit paranoid.

Assuming they track every single purchase made at a store along with the credit card number used (or at least some form of ID associated with that particular card), and all the times the MACs left the store, how many sets of data do you think they need to get a 1:1 match between MAC and person? Even for really large stores, I'm guessing it would only take 2-3 visits before they can link you to POS records with decent…

Mix that with a camera at each teller to do good facial capture for cash customers and cameras at the door scanning people coming in and it gets a bit creepier.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#220

Post by bcohen5055 » Mon, Jun 09, 2014, 2:50 PM UTC

fooqux wrote: post #217

bcohen5055 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this so creepy? They know a piece of hardware has been in certain locations for a certain amount of time. This data can help improve your shopping experience and help the store better market to you. (While also increasing their sales). There is nothing personal about at MAC address go ahead and track it. Also... Yes keeping your phone in Airplane mode is a bit paranoid.

Assuming they track every single purchase made at a store along with the credit card number used (or at least some form of ID associated with that particular card), and all the times the MACs left the store, how many sets of data do you think they need to get a 1:1 match between MAC and person? Even for really large stores, I'm guessing it would only take 2-3 visits before they can link you to POS records with decent…

Amazon, does this and it creates (for me) a better shopping experience. When I go to amazon it knows what things I want to buy and puts them right in front of me. Then it points me to other items that are related. Amazon knows precise,y what I look at and for how long before I buy it. Why is this good for online shopping and bad at a B&M store?