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Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

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Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#81

Post by esbonsa »

mikeash wrote: post #65
esbonsa wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... and a big part of the advantage with electric cars is that they use less energy in every step of the process except initial manufacturing." The most important part for me for electric cars is the simpler power-train system which is less likely to break... which is why i would never buy an hybrid that has both systems.

Oddly, hybrids seem to be really reliable, despite the additional stuff to break. Priuses get top marks for reliability. I'm not sure why, but I imagine it comes down to the electric stuff being extremely reliable due to the nature of the beast, and the gasoline end being treated more nicely (more consistent RPMs and throttle settings, no idling, not being used at all for a substantial fraction of your miles) more th…

top marks where? I don't see it... here is one source: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/12/used-car...

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#82

Post by mikeash »

esbonsa wrote: post #81
mikeash wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly, hybrids seem to be really reliable, despite the additional stuff to break. Priuses get top marks for reliability. I'm not sure why, but I imagine it comes down to the electric stuff being extremely reliable due to the nature of the beast, and the gasoline end being treated more nicely (more consistent RPMs and throttle settings, no idling, not being used at all for a substantial fraction of your miles) more th…

top marks where? I don't see it... here is one source: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/12/used-car...

I didn't have any specific source in mind when I made that comment, it's just something I've seen in general. To double-check, I did a Google search for "most reliable used cars", then clicked on the first five links that didn't involve a price ceiling. Four out of five listed the Prius as being among the most reliable. For reference, here are the links I found:

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/car-dealer-scientifi...

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ehmk45iidj/toyota-prius-2/

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/18-most-dependable-cars-on-th...

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/best-used-cars-2013.html

http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automobiles/10-most-dependable-c... (This is the one without a Prius, but even this one has a hybrid on the list in the form of the Volt.)

Anecdotally, I seem to see a disproportionate number of the original Prius on the road still, despite only selling 54,000 of them in the US, and being over a decade old at this point. That could, of course, just be confirmation bias or local demographics.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#83

Post by SyncTheory13 »

semerda wrote: post #15
[deleted] wrote: post #4

[deleted]

That is the intent => "the car would still rely on its regular rechargable lithium-ion battery most of the time and would switch to the aluminum-air battery as a backup only if the lithium-ion battery ran out"

While I initially liked this idea... I think I'd much prefer this one:

http://www.eptender.com/

It's just a gasoline/diesel (or other fuel-powered!) generator that plugs into an electric car. I believe the company is looking to rent them out to people as needed, similar to renting a truck from uHaul. If they could land a contract with uHaul or something, it could take off... Seems the charging port isn't universal on electric cars though...

Personally, I'd prefer to buy my own and have it around the house as an emergency generator as well as for the rare long trip. Much simpler and more versatile than a Hybrid, for sure.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#84

Post by stcredzero »

dojomouse wrote: post #79
stcredzero wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like saying 'if you're looking at a new solution you better account for every step of the process...The logic isn't circular. In the general context of whether we can get ourselves out of carbon dioxide pollution, it is, and this happens again and again. If we assume that the current truism of our industrial society -- that you almost can't do anything without a carbon footprint -- is somehow true for all t…

Uhh... I disagree. Firstly, I don't see the circle in the following: - SolutionX puts lots of CO2 into the atmosphere compared to alternatives, and would be extremely uneconomic if we included in the cost/unitSolutionX the cost required to extract that CO2 from the atmosphere again. - Lots of CO2 in the atmosphere is bad -> SolutionX is either bad because it's uneconomic, or bad because it leads to lots of CO2 in the…

Uhh... I disagree. Firstly, I don't see the circle in the following

Having made this realization, then coming back to see this hunk of text written absent it sort of seals the deal as far as you being one of these particular kinds of circular thinkers. Namely, I 'll note that you're seemingly going on with the assumption that the Bosch process is the only way we could possibly get carbon out of the atmosphere on industrial scales. Left as an exercise.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#85

Post by dojomouse »

stcredzero wrote: post #84
dojomouse wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh... I disagree. Firstly, I don't see the circle in the following: - SolutionX puts lots of CO2 into the atmosphere compared to alternatives, and would be extremely uneconomic if we included in the cost/unitSolutionX the cost required to extract that CO2 from the atmosphere again. - Lots of CO2 in the atmosphere is bad -> SolutionX is either bad because it's uneconomic, or bad because it leads to lots of CO2 in the…

Uhh... I disagree. Firstly, I don't see the circle in the following Having made this realization, then coming back to see this hunk of text written absent it sort of seals the deal as far as you being one of these particular kinds of circular thinkers. Namely, I 'll note that you're seemingly going on with the assumption that the Bosch process is the only way we could possibly get carbon out of the atmosphere on indu…

Not at all. I'm pointing out that whatever process you assume to get carbon out of the atmosphere, you should plug the inputs and outputs of that process into your calculation.

Speaking of circular processes though... does this one look familiar?

a) Angrily and dismissively state flawed views

b) Have flaws in views pointed out

c) goto a)

Of course it's not purely circular as with every iteration there's more anger and less substance. But whatever.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#86

Post by zurn »

marvin wrote: post #44
jff wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This particular smelter uses hydroelectric power, mentioned in the article.

Moot point, unfortunately. Hydropower displaces fossil energy if the nearby energy markets are halfway deregulated and efficient.

Unless you're Iceland, with more geothermal and hydro than you know wat to do wit, and too far away from civilization. One of the largest aluminum exporters in the world.

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#87

Post by stcredzero »

dojomouse wrote: post #85
stcredzero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh... I disagree. Firstly, I don't see the circle in the following Having made this realization, then coming back to see this hunk of text written absent it sort of seals the deal as far as you being one of these particular kinds of circular thinkers. Namely, I 'll note that you're seemingly going on with the assumption that the Bosch process is the only way we could possibly get carbon out of the atmosphere on indu…

Not at all. I'm pointing out that whatever process you assume to get carbon out of the atmosphere, you should plug the inputs and outputs of that process into your calculation. Speaking of circular processes though... does this one look familiar? a) Angrily and dismissively state flawed views b) Have flaws in views pointed out c) goto a) Of course it's not purely circular as with every iteration there's more anger an…

Not at all. I'm pointing out that whatever process you assume to get carbon out of the atmosphere

Yeah, you don't know what it is, do you?

you should plug the inputs and outputs of that process into your calculation.

It's powered by the sun and all of the carbon gets pulled out of the atmosphere by nanomachines. As the mass of carbon used for the reaction is only 1/10th the mass of aluminum produced, the mass of the carbon needed for the current world production of aluminum would constitute a fraction of a percent of the world's total current agricultural output. Some additional energy would be needed to carbonize the material, but this fuel could be drawn from the same feedstock, and still amount to a fraction of a percent of the world's agricultural output.

a-c

Not at all. My position is that there is a kind of commenter who thinks themselves "smart" for being able to recite facts about the current world, but can't see when they are applying the facts in ways that show they can't think a few steps ahead from first principles. Instead they rigidly apply the current situation and present it in arguments as if they had actually refuted something. Any escalation is merely due to the level of annoyance from repeatedly missed hints.

The same sort of "logic" you present could be used in the Napoleonic era to "prove" that aluminum smelting would forever be impossible. (And you probably don't recognize the trap inherent in that one, or the other two traps above.)

Re: Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa

#88

Post by dojomouse »

stcredzero wrote: post #87
dojomouse wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. I'm pointing out that whatever process you assume to get carbon out of the atmosphere, you should plug the inputs and outputs of that process into your calculation. Speaking of circular processes though... does this one look familiar? a) Angrily and dismissively state flawed views b) Have flaws in views pointed out c) goto a) Of course it's not purely circular as with every iteration there's more anger an…

Not at all. I'm pointing out that whatever process you assume to get carbon out of the atmosphere Yeah, you don't know what it is, do you? you should plug the inputs and outputs of that process into your calculation. It's powered by the sun and all of the carbon gets pulled out of the atmosphere by nanomachines. As the mass of carbon used for the reaction is only 1/10th the mass of aluminum produced, the mass of the…

Oh, of course. Nanomachines.

So basically we should celebrate this contemporary not-really-an-innovation because some future speculative innovation might make it useful... and ignore the fact that it's much more likely that the future speculative innovation would make it entirely redundant. I love it that your future sees us pulling CO2 directly from the atmosphere with nanomachines, but still driving around in cars that run on blocks of aluminium taken from aluminium oxide through smelting.

If I use your logic then I can just say "There's no issue with everyone running their cars on diesel". After all, one day we'll have nanomachines which can pull the soot, sulphur dioxide, CO2 and water vapour from the atmosphere and convert it all back into diesel again for a squeaky clean closed loop system running off the clean energy technology I have also implemented at massive scale.

I don't know why we're even bothering with clean diesel. Or any pollution controls at all for that matter. Nanomachines will sort that right out!

How're they coming along by the way? Oh, they're not ready? In the meantime then we should probably stick with assessing merit based on near term available technology, rather than saying "this thing is great, because I will solve all the things you don't like about it with my nanotech magic wand which I'm sure I'll have access to on a suitable timeframe".

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